Open Sandy Thread

Hope everyone’s OK out there. Please be careful.

bullet image No real surprise here. The weedpass has been scrapped in the Netherlands, and, while they’re still planning on restricting access to foreigners, they’re letting local units determine that.

However, the coalition agreement goes on to say that determining how this residency requirement is applied will be done ‘in discussion with the local councils concerned and if necessary phased in’. This will allow a tailor-made approach per locality, the agreement states.

The mayors of the Netherlands four big cities Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht are opposed to the introduction of the cannabis card, saying it will lead to an increase in street dealing.

The coalition agreement would appear to pave the way for the big cities to determine their own policies, but there has not yet been any official comment on this.

bullet image Declare victory in the War on Drugs — then run like hell – interesting post by Laurence Copeland

…But then so was Soviet Communism, so back in the 1960′s the urge to rescue Vietnam from the clutches of the evil empire was understandable. As with the War on Drugs, the cost was in the end far far too high – and as with the War on Drugs, it was mainly borne by innocent civilians, the collateral damage in the fighting between the two sides. Just as, back then, the ever-rising body count was mindlessly quoted as evidence that America was winning, so today the value of drug seizures is cited as proof we’re winning – it isn’t, and we aren’t.

In the end, reality will catch up. Just as the U.S. military was unable to deliver the victory the politicians demanded in Vietnam, the same is plainly happening now with drugs, as more and more senior policemen – the generals in this crazy war – are ready to tell their political masters the truth, that it’s all over, we’ve lost, and the proof is out there on the streets for all to see, where the price of many drugs is at rock-bottom levels.

Even if we call a halt to the madness tomorrow, it will take decades to recover, but the sooner we stop it, the better. There is only one possible solution, and it is the one which got America out of Vietnam (and will end up getting us out of Afghanistan): declare victory – and run like hell.

bullet image Note: tomorrow, the Supreme Court will be hearing the latest case about drug-sniffing dogs. It will give the court the opportunity to undo some of the damage in the horrible case they decided in Caballes v. Illinois, or alternately, permanently enshrine those wielding drug-sniffing dogs as exempt from the Constitution.

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67 Responses to Open Sandy Thread

  1. claygooding says:

    “”In the end, reality will catch up. Just as the U.S. military was unable to deliver the victory the politicians demanded in Vietnam””

    Sorry Pete,,it wasn’t that we could not have won in VN,,it was the rules of engagement put out by the politicians that kept a victory from ever happening. War should be a total war against your enemy and does not have lines on a map you stay behind. War has no rules. Kill everybody big enough to die,,if you aren’t willing to do that,then you are not at war,,the VC didn’t mind killing entire villages and did so quite often,,never heard about a Lt Calley equivalent.

    • ezrydn says:

      During my tour with the 1st of the 7th Cav, we never lost an engagement. Same holds true after I left. How does one win every battle yet lose the war? Simple. The populus and Administration decided to give up. The American people didn’t want a victory. They were comfy with a failure. Never tell a VN vet he lost the war. He’ll correct you, right and proper.

      The American people did exactly what the French did. I know because my buddy here was at Dien Bien Phu when it fell. France had stopped sending supplies and ammo. I guess that would have been next for our field grunts.

      If one drop of American blood is spilled, we should fight to the finish, which according to Gen. Giap, wasn’t that far away. America lacks balls it once had and were proud of.

      • darkcycle says:

        Yep. The American fighting man is second to none. But the leaders and policy makers…well…suck. We will execute any mission given us, just make that mission victory, and we’ll deliver.
        We could have conquered the North Vietnamese. We could have subjugated the hostile population. But the cost of first winning, and ultimately holding on to that victory would have pushed this nation to the brink of internal dissolution. Kinda like where we find ourselves right now. To Nixon’s credit, he saw what his policies would have resulted in and ultimately (though reluctantly) got out. Unlike Bush the lesser, who saw what his policies would result in, and eagerly pursued them.

        • divadab says:

          I don’t get how you expected to “win” someone else’s civil war. It’s their country, NOT OURS! Why is it our business who they put in charge?

          I believe in the booty principle – if you’re going to engage in a shooting war, there should be booty if you win. That’s why I quit shouting about invading Iraq for a while – I thought Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al were grabbing the oil for our benefit. However, since until last year less Iraqi oil was pumping than before we invaded, and the price of oil has continued to rise from what it was before the invasion, I’ve come to this conclusion: Invading Iraq was an oil company deal to take Iraqi oil out of production and guarantee excessive oilco profits. Bush and CHeney are Oil company men and boy did they do a good job for them while selling out the country and dishonoring the military in an unjust war for profit.

          I think we should privatise the military – which means they don;t get government funds – they have to sustain themselves with booty. We’d still control Iraq and oil prices would be lower if this had been the case in 2003. Think Sir Francis Drake – a privateer who financed his own fleets with the booty he made raiding the enemy Spain. And every man on the ship, down to the lowest cabin boy, got a share of the profit. Now that is real venture capitalism! And no cost to the government!

        • darkcycle says:

          You’re right. you can’t win somebody else’s civil war. You can subjugate a population, however. It’s a good thing that is not in the makeup of Americans to subjugate a population militarily. It’s quite brutal. We mostly content ourselves with subjugating them economically and propping up the current local doing the subjugating. The American people would likely find it quite distasteful to do the dirty work ourselves.

      • It would help if the US declared wars and stayed away if it doesn’t. Instead we pussyfoot around and send in the CIA.

        Why are we fighting undeclared wars? That’s the culprit.

  2. primus says:

    OK, then let’s just throw out the Geneva Convention, all the ‘normal’ rules of warfare, and become total barbarians. The argument that the US could have won in VN if only the generals were allowed to is an old one, not worth repeating. Fact is, popular sentiment in the US turned against the VNW and that made it impossible to continue, much as public sentiment is now turning against the WOD and that means it can’t continue.

  3. allan says:

    and I think it’s music time… this one’s for all you (Pete’s)Couch Potatoes


  4. pt says:

    Speaking of court cases, wasn’t the protest of the federal gov’t’s classification of marijuana as schedule 1 (the one that previously involved the administrative law judge saying marijuana was “the safest theraputically active substance known to man” then delayed till Leonhart vetoed it days before Bush left office) supposed to go back to court on Oct 16th? Did I miss it? What happened?

    • darkcycle says:

      Arguments are still being heard. Might not get a final decision for a month or more, pt.

      • Duncan20903 says:


        It’s only at the Federal Court of Appeals. It still has to go to the SCOTUS so it’s going to be early 2014 before we have a ruling of any significance. But for some reason that I’m unable to articulate I’ve got this feeling that cannabis law reform is going to have a Roe v Wade moment, and that moment is imminent. Write it off as wishful thinking on my part. I won’t be offended. Well unless it happens, then I’m to be feted like the mother loving genius that I am. 🙂

        • Duncan20903 says:


          I should have added that it could be settled by the middle of 2013 if the SCOTUS refuses to grant certiorari. But I don’t think that’s likely at all. I find it even less likely than the losing side choosing to forgo a petition to the SCOTUS.

          I must admit it would give me a warm fuzzy if the SCOTUS were to tell the prohibitionists to pound sand. Yes, I very much expect that the victory will be ours when the dust settles.

        • claygooding says:

          I have a feeling this storm up your way is going to influence a lot of political campaigns and could cause some major changes in policies,,the cost of this is going to cause meat cleaver cuts to a lot of budget items. And the possible loss of lives due to weather and any slow response by our President will hurt him BAD!

  5. Cliff says:

    The US had technically won the Vietnam War by the time the Tet Offensive of January 1968. Gen. Giap had doubled down with only one NVA regular regiment held in reserve. The US held its ground and defeated the VC and the NVA.

    The only problem was like Clay Gooding said, we didn’t finish the job and go for the kill shot when we had the chance. We didn’t go into Laos and Cambodia (Spec Ops and Rolling Thunder excepted) and take out the VC supply lines and occupy territory in those areas as well as in North Vietnam.

    Meanwhile, Ho Chi Minh was able to win the hearts and minds of the student counterculture revolution. It was a simple psy-ops to take away the will to fight and die for a country most Americans had never heard of before the late 50’s.

    As an aside, Ho Chi Minh was a fascinating historical character who fought the Japanese on our side in WW II. We (Eisenhower administration) reneged on getting France to end their colonial rule after the war (Dien Bien Phu anyone?)

    By the time of the Tet Offensive, America had grown weary of the war and the draft. The US lost the war by losing faith in the cause and the national will to fight, because ultimately it wasn’t a war for national survival, like the 1776 Revolution or WW II. IMHO, it was a proto war of empire, a precursor to the wars we are involved in now.

    It should also be noted that the Chinese saw an opportunity to attack Vietnam in 1979 and the war weakened Vietnamese gave China a whipping they will not soon forget. (Both sides claimed victory) It was interesting in that this was a Sino-Soviet proxy war.

    • TieHash says:

      We could have not even had to fight there if we had provided the french a single B-29 strike to save Dien Bien Phu ( or if the french had not made one or two mistakes . in the battle)

  6. mikekinseattle says:

    Kevin Sabet makes an astounding prediction: the black market will continue to exist to serve the underage crowd after legalization. Like it does for alcohol.

    • allan says:

      thanks Mike, that’s a good piece and Kev-Kev makes his usual squawkings. What – as always – he fails to mention are the overwhelming harms of Prohibition. Duh… Kev.

      In reading that article I was also struck by the repeating themes we’ve worked so hard for so long at spreading – drug dealers don’t check IDs, cigarette consumption reduced through education rather than at gunpoint – it’s heartening to hear how loud we’ve become and that our legion grows while the prohib cabal shrinks and the power of their lies shrivel.

    • Matthew Meyer says:

      Wow, I didn’t know that Kevin “current Director of the Drug Policy Institute **and** the University of Florida College of Medicine”

      I don’t suppose Kev will be insisting they correct the error, will he?

    • Opiophiliac says:

      Ever notice how Sabet keeps using the word “normalization” with regard to MJ legalization? Is this the new strategy of the prohibitionists? They don’t want to use the phrase “war on drugs” anymore and instead of “sending a message that drug use is unacceptable” we have the horrors of drug “normalization.” They can change the language but the prohibitionists still use real bullets in this “non-war” on drugs and rely on stigmatization of people who use drugs to send a message.

  7. darkcycle says:

    Duncan? You make it through the storm okay? Your place was smack dab in the path.

  8. Servetus says:

    Terpene Factoids for the Cannabis Connoisseur

    • MyKindOfTerp says:

      “Together, the data would support the hypothesis that myrcene is a prominent sedative terpenoid in cannabis, and combined with THC, may produce the ‘couch-lock’ phenomenon of certain chemotypes that is alternatively decried or appreciated by recreational cannabis consumers.”

  9. TieHash says:

    Something rather depressing happened this weekend. I went out to see “The House I Live In” at the theater, and other than my family there were no more than five other people in the theater. It was a very good film and deserves a wider audience, hopefully places other than Dallas it is being received with more enthusiasm.

    • claygooding says:

      Sheeple don’t care,,it takes removing their feedbag and a solid thump in the head to gain their attention.

      • claygooding says:

        PS:our comments were removed Curtis.

        • stlgonzo says:

          The thing I found most interesting about the comments on that article is, with all of the legitimate questions and arguments made Kevy-kev only responded to is one that called him names. His response was very enlightening something like “Is that all you got? Way to retort to name calling.”

        • claygooding says:

          It was the only post Kev-Kev answered because he has no facts or proof for his logic or fears,,all he is doing is being a snake oil salesman for a bad product.

        • stlgonzo says:

          I already dislike the dude, but he seems childish.

        • darkcycle says:

          Naw, Clay, they’re still up. At least I can see ’em.
          Oh, and the random comments of Curtis Creek are all me.

        • Matthew Meyer says:

          I did see some comments from you there. And Kevin did “respond” to Sunil Aggarwal’s complaints he mischaracterized the AMA position on cannabis.

        • darkcycle says:

          Wow. That is one active thread!

    • Maria says:

      That is sad… I was planning to go see it Sunday but had a family medical emergency to deal with, so next weekend it is. Will try to drag at least two other people kicking and screaming with me.

    • Opiophiliac says:

      I also hope people go to see “The House I Live In” but am not really surprised theaters aren’t packed. Documentaries just aren’t as popular as the regular fare offered by Hollywood. People go to the movies to be entertained and not to, God forbid, actually think.

      “David Simon, creator of The Wire, who argues that the targeting of minorities, fused with mandatory sentencing, has turned the war on drugs into ‘a holocaust in slow motion.'” (Quoted from Owen Gleiberman’s review.)

      That’s a powerful statement and while some people will dismiss it as hyperbole I am convinced that future generations will look back on the War on (some) Drugs in the same context as other campaigns waged by a powerful majority against a scapegoated minority.

      Because the WOsD is ostensibly waged in the name of health and public safety, the prohibitionists’ argument goes something like, “Drugs destroy people’s lives, so to fight drugs we need to destroy the lives of drug users.”

      Jarecki deserves credit for exposing just how sick and wrong that thinking is.

  10. Opiophiliac says:

    NPR has a story on the SCOTUS case involving drug dogs.

    “… the issue being argued Wednesday is deadly serious: whether police can take a trained drug-detection dog up to a house to smell for drugs inside, and if the dog alerts, use that to justify a search of the home.”

    “Police would be free ‘to walk up and down suburban neighborhoods, go up to each door, and see if the dog alerts to contraband.'”

    Does anyone really think police will target suburban neighborhoods, or will they target poor and minority communities? If drug prohibition targeted medium and upper-income communities it would have been abolished a long time ago.

    “The police were doing nothing more than the postman or the trick-or-treater, says lawyer Gregory Garre, representing Florida. The police ‘did the same thing that millions of Americans will do on Halloween night, which is walk up to the front steps, knock on the door, and while they were there, they took in the air and the dog alerted to the smell of illegal narcotics.'”

    I don’t know about Gregory Garre’s postman, but in my experience the post office doesn’t break down doors with armed thugs desperate to impose their own twisted sense of morality on otherwise law-abiding Americans. Equating narcotics officers with trick-or-treaters would be funny if it wasn’t so deadly serious.

  11. darkcycle says:

    Wow. O/T, but not. These are the people we entrust “to protect and serve”:
    If I’d seen this, I’d be in jail or dead right now.

    • stlgonzo says:

      Wow, just wow. That is all I can say.

      I have heard anecdotal evidence that various police agencies will discourage or out-right pass up on more intelligent applicants. This is supposedly because more intelligent people would get bored by the monotony and routine.

      I guess they are reaping the rewards of such policies there.

  12. stlgonzo says:

    Mike Riggs with another good article debunking the newsweek article by Tony Dokoupil. (Or Mark Kleiman)

    Newsweek: Marijuana Can Kill You and/or Make You Kill Your Baby

    • Duncan20903 says:


      Wasn’t that an episode of Dragnet, the late 1960s version? In that episode Sgt Friday and Officer Gannon raid a pot party and find an infant drowned in the bathtub. Sheesh, why didn’t I think of this before now? The prohibitionists claim that today’s merrywanna is some umpteen times more potent than the pot in the ’60s. Well I think this episode of Dragnet puts the lie to that particular piece of propaganda. In all my decades subsequent to choosing to enjoy cannabis I never once saw anyone get that high. Here’s the episode on Hulu, I’ll let you decide for yourself:

      ———- ———- ———- ———- ———-

      Can anyone tell which former drug czar is in this picture? Careful now, that’s a trick question.

      • darkcycle says:

        UGH. Isn’t that John Walters? Keep that creepy bastard away from my kids.
        (That’s right, folks, I said kids….it’s off to Africa in two weeks. After three years in the adoption process, we are nearly there. looking forward to bringing the newest home (very) early in the new year. Happy Halloween, and joyous Samhain.)

    • darkcycle says:

      Nothing new. One of the issues with widespread cameras is that issue of police using video surveillance of subjects. So, it behooves anyone living under constant surveillance to behave LIKE THEY ARE ON CAMERA AT ALL TIMES outside the sanctity of the home. Drawn shades are in order there. But it is worthy of note, one of the best weapons WE have as citizens, is the ability to record police encounters as they occur. Again, it may be legal, but I would still do it surreptitiously.
      This is the new age of paranoia. You are being watched. Behave like it.

    • Pete says:

      Oh, my. That is truly horrible.

      • allan says:

        yeah, i even let some of it load just to see how bad it was. Back in my college film production classes (we used real film)(Tim Kring, creator of Heroes, was a classmate, our instructor went to UCLA film school w/ Jim Morrison) as just kids, no one had production values as low as this.

        I think this is Tom Angell’s version of putting a burning bag of dog poop on the porch! Thanks Tom… happy Halloween to you too

    • darkcycle says:

      I couldn’t make the audio out, but it has to be some sort of parody….right? Right?

      • Servetus says:

        Sorry, no parody, dc. What I’m seeing is the caricature of every Republican prohib I’ve ever imagined, collectively depicted and encompassed within one horrid sound-quality, amateur-hour production; one created by some director or producer who definitely needs your urgent, professional therapy.

        Or they’re 13-years-old and this is their first YouTube bomb. In any case, they still need your help.

      • Francis says:

        Oh, man, that’s baaaad. Inexplicably, horribly, cringe-inducingly, unforgivably bad. Forget the production values. (Can that term even be applied here?) Forget the terrible acting. Forget the pathetic writing. Forget the fact that it appears to have been shot in a single take. Forget the barely-audible audio. The concept is baffling. I mean, it’s generally a bad idea to make your own version of something that is already a parody. It seems like a good idea. “Hey, people like that Church Lady character from SNL. Let’s do something with that.” Er… well, yeah, they did like that character in the late 80’s / early 90’s. But even if you weren’t 20 years behind the times, it would still be a bad idea, because you’re not as funny or as talented as Dana Carvey. And so, best case, you end up making a pale imitation of the original that suffers from the comparison. And you did NOT manage a “best case” here. But to choose a Church Lady knock-off to deliver the anti-legalization message?! The Church Lady character was funny because she was a parody of self-righteous, moralizing, hypocritical, out-of-touch, religious fanaticism. If you’re a professional prohibitionist, is that really a comparison you want to invite? Do these guys really have that little self-awareness? WTF?

    • Maria says:

      o.O wtf was that?

      No really. Seriously. The internet seldom makes me go wtf anymore. I’m seeing a therapist for my inability to wtf.

      But … WTF WAS THAT?

      • Maria says:

        Gods, I just need to follow up. Is that the real DFAF you tube channel? And if it is, do they actually know that those videos are public?

        • darkcycle says:

          I’m guessing somebody spoofed them real good, Maria, some here think it’s authentic. I can’t speculate anymore, I need a bong hit. Maria, dear, would you be kind enough to share some of that??

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  14. CJ says:

    sandy broke my heart as i thought of all the homeless heroin users who need to hustle money throughout the day in the tri-state area for their daily. thanks to prohibition. it really really really broke my heart thinking of the withdrawals they probably had to go through throughout all this….not just that but the absolute mayhem of a heroin users life on the streets during the hurricane…unimaginable…even for me whose been there done that so many times. i always try to find the homeless folks i know who do what i do and give them as much $ as i can spare during horrible weather…but i couldnt do anything at all thanks to Sandy…. it hurt my heart real bad… made me so depressed…still am…

    thanks prohibition, thanks for everything, your the best.


    • Duncan20903 says:


      Hey CJ, why don’t you and your compatriots grow your own opium poppies? It appears that they’re very easy to cultivate because they grow very well in Afghanistan and that area is barren and infertile. Oh well, I’ve been thinking about giving it a try myself because I really do miss that classic Thai stick reefer. Oh well, if I ever get around to making the attempt I’ll try to remember to let you know how it goes.

    • Opiophiliac says:

      CJ I feel your pain, I really do.
      Your metabolism doesn’t take time off for natural disasters or holidays. To stay out of acute withdrawal and the agony that entails opiate addicts need to be on their game 365 days a year, natural disaster or not. On days like Christmas when the majority of people get a break and spend time with their families we have to hustle twice as hard to raise money and avoid the police. Natural disasters are stressful enough for non-users, but for opiate addicts interruption of the black market combined with other aspects of prohibition-induced persecution (ie homelessness) add a whole new dimension of suffering to an already bad situation.

  15. darkcycle says:

    Dave, my old compatriot had a lovely greenhouse full of White opium poppies. But, as typical for Dave, he tried a shortcut to the extraction process and ruined the whole batch. *sigh* Not the first time for old Dave. Not unusual in a head injury survivor, he “misses things”.

  16. darkcycle says:

    U.S. Government working WITH the cartels. Right up to and including allowing assassinations on U.S. Soil. This is criminal in the extreme:

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  18. thelbert says:

    turkish detectives like you pete. me too. you are doing good work here.

    • allan says:

      Turkey once had a major problem w/ heroin and crime syndicates then they legalized opium poppy farming and now heroin production is a very minor issue… huh… weird how that works

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