Open Thread

Those who don’t learn from history…

bullet image Marijuana legalization bill may threaten fabulous Prohibition II profits by Paul Carpenter

The next time they designed such a system, the gangsters and their allies were more clever. With Prohibition II, they skillfully made Americans believe the war on drugs was in the public’s interest.

The consequences of Prohibition II, which targets drugs other than alcohol, have been exactly the same as those of Prohibition I, including bloodshed and the widespread corruption of public officials. The main difference is that the cabal has been far more effective in keeping it going.

bullet image The Drug Laws That Changed How We Punish by Brian Mann

Persico, the aide who helped push through Rockefeller’s drug laws, says new scrutiny for the policy is overdue.

“I concluded very early that this was a failure. It’s filling up the prisons, first-time offenders,” Persico says. “This was obviously unjust — and not just unjust, it was unwise; it was ineffective.”

This debate is far from over. Supporters of mandatory minimums say the policy has helped reduce crime in some cities, including New York, and they point to modest declines in the use of some drugs, particularly cocaine. Persico says Rockefeller himself never expressed any second thoughts or reservations about the policy that carries his name.

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27 Responses to Open Thread

  1. divadab says:

    Bloomberg is carrying Rockefeller’s drug warrior banner still. And now, as it was then, prohibition, especially of natural plant drugs cannabis and coca, is not about public health. It’s about keeping the undesirables (hippies, brown people) down and out of sight. And giving law enforcement low-hanging fruit to justify their budgets.

    Prohibition is a morally-depraved policy. It corrupts society. It diminishes respect for the law and the government. Its outcomes are worse than the problems it purports to solve. It’s bad policy, period.

  2. ezrydn says:

    We’ve STILL got the gangsters in charge. Except today, we call them “politicians.”

  3. mr. ikashini says:

    Hey NPR is 4 more debate, love the eyestrain reading that text! What’s the point?

  4. Duncan20903 says:


    Pope Bent-a-dick has resigned. That means the Church needs a new head Holy kiddie diddler. As has happened in every Pope election in my life there is speculation that that the new Popemiester will be American, and in the highly unlikely event that happens then the smart money is on Timothy Cardinal Dolan of the Archdiocese of New Yorkand director of the New York State chapter of NAMBLA. Cardinal Dolan thinks that those speculumations “are only from people smoking marijuana.”
    Dolan: Chances I’ll get job are doobie-ous

    I almost dropped dead from shock. A stupid pot joke headline that I’ve never seen before. Maybe there is a god after all.

    Also, Bill Maher has thrown his hat in the ring. I’ll be at Mass the Sunday after (if) he gets elected and on any given Sunday subsequently. He also likes Hillary Clinton for the position. I’ll strongly consider being at that same Mass if she gets the nod. Ya hear that god? [crickets]

    Bill Maher: If [Pope Bent-a-dick] can quit, you can quit the Catholic Church, too

    To see Bill’s hat watch the last minute of the video. Just FYI the throwing part is metaphorical. But it’s really a spectacular hat.

    Instead of coming he went. Indeed.

    • Servetus says:

      Ratflinger is on the run from the law, or at least in a sitting position.

      An organization billing itself as the International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State (ITCCS) has quarantined the old inquisitor inside the walls and perimeters of the Vatican. Outside those boundaries, his unholiness may be subject to arrest and being raped in prison:

      The ITCCS is the type of organization I’ve discussed before that goes after international criminals like Ratflinger by using international law and the International Criminal Court.

      The criminals in this case are ordinarily immune to conventional types of prosecution because of their political status or other complications. Something like what the ITCCS does could be applied to the worldwide prohibicite problem in the same way it’s applied to stodgy old pederasts and their protectors.

  5. QuaxMercy says:

    I’d like to explore what a Super Bowl of Debunkment of Prohibitionist lies might look like. South Dakota put a stop to legislative consideration this term after “sends the wrong message” & “gateway drug” were invoked in hearings. Kentucky had to listen to their Commissioner of State Police, Rodney Brewer, trot out those hoary fibs “pot farmers will hide their grow in the hemp fields” & “smoking hemp will too get you high.” How can the discussion advance when it gets brought back to square one over & over again? These people and their falsifications need to be definitively quashed. The medical science needs to guide our discussion. Let each side present their best case, and have a board of doctors & researchers review & expose the grotesque fictions proffered as fact.
    It breaks my heart that we pay an administrator to parrot this “sends the wrong message” line. Essentially, Kerlikowske maintains that teaching the medical science sends kids the wrong message. How can it get any more UnAmerican?

    • Windy says:

      No, that’s the new America. Lies repreated over and over and over, until “everybody knows legal marijuana sends the wrong message”, “everybody knows guns don’t belong in the hands of the people”, “everybody knows we live in a free country”, and “everybody knows the Constituton no longer applies”, etc., etc., etc.. Indoctrination is the new American education, and ignorance the new American knowledge.

      • QuaxMercy says:

        No, excuse me, I’m not talking about all that other stuff right here. I mean: I’d thought the Circuit Court in the ASA v. DEA case would shape a televised Open Forum for a Final Throwdown, losers banished to eternal exile. Some kind of transparent airing, with real consequences – like losing pensions if their case doesn’t stand up – then let’s see the next Police Commish try to pass off the same pack of lies. In order to make progress on our progress, we need to leave some of this shit behind.

  6. Jose79845 says:

    With Prohibtion II the government has much more money to spend than Prohibition I. They can do interagency cooperation with the war on terror.

    The one thorn in their side has been the ballot box in places like Colorado and Washington.

    To correct this problem, Obama and drug war McCain are in the process of legalizing 30 million Catholic-programmed Mexicans who will vote to reinstate the drug war.

    • Duncan20903 says:


      I’ve often said this Country’s unregistered guest “problem” would be very easy to fix. We just annex Mexico. “Problem” solved. The problem with this plan to solve the “problem” is the astronomical dollar cost. The Country would then have 82 States instead of 50. That would require the Federal government to immediately replace every flag that it owns.

      I’m not sure that you know just how darn many red, white and blues that the Federal government owns. Well neither do I but you can rest assured that it’s an effing very large number. I’m not sure that you know just how darn much money that the Office of Contracting and Procurement pays for a new flag. Well neither do I but you can rest assured that it’s a very large number.

      There’s just no way to fudge it with 82 States. If we increased to 52 Mr. Obama could just order the citizenry to see 52 stars when viewing a flag owned by the United States of America. Then we could just replace them when they reach the end of their usable life and the problem would solve itself in a few short years. But that just doesn’t work when the increase in the number of stars is in excess of 63.99%, no matter the actual level of blind patriotism/jingoistic ferver registered by the population.

      52: ****************************************************

      82: *********************************************************************************

  7. Duncan20903 says:


    At least the Buckeye leaf bears a reasonable resemblance to a cannabis leaf. Certainly more so than horse mint or sage.
    side x side

  8. joey708 says:

    When God created the world, Genesis 1:29 says: “Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food..'”
    So who is man to tell God that He created an illegal substance?
    People can eat too much food (& get fat/diseased), drink too much alcohol (& get diseased/die in an accident), work too much (& ignore family/health), do too many hobbies (& not get a job/be poor), etc.
    Same goes with pot or tobacco: if you smoke it you may get a disease/die.
    Indians and other cultures used pot as an herb for cooking or tea (for discomfort, etc), just like we use oregano/other spices & herbs, “soothing” teas, minerals, flower petals, etc.
    If someone smokes oregano or other leaves, they may get “high”, but all other leaves on this planet are not illegal.
    Smoking is the bad part of any herb usage, because it is bad for the lungs.
    Eating herbs is how they were designed to be used, as far as I understand from God’s Word.
    I could never understand how the people of this country didn’t do their homework when they were told that it causes so many bad problems, when it was first put into effect as a crime of ownership/usage.
    Most states also have no measured amount of the content in the blood, so if a motorist or other civilian is arrested for this “offense”, some states will charge them with the highest alcohol intoxication and throw the longest jail terms and penalties at them, leaving no choice for the civilian to endure some form of punishment for imbibing in God’s leaves/seeds.

  9. “Following a hellish 13 years, 10 months and 18 days, the second worst mistake the nation ever made was repealed, but not before a gigantic establishment of fabulously wealthy organized criminals was created, along with the similarly large establishment of corrupt politicians and law enforcement people.”

    There is an enterprising politician in Idaho who wants to solve all of this by PERMANENTLY banning marijuana. Forever.

    Man, talk about ultimate greed. This sounded funny to me at first glance, until I realized that he’s serious.

    • Duncan20903 says:


      No doubt that is one is from the “beam me up Scotty, there’s no intelligent life here” category. The good news is that this Country is scraping the bottom of the Know Nothing prohibitionist barrel.

  10. claygooding says:

    What kind of message is our political leadership sending the children,,,and the rest of the world,,when any politician can continue to support the war on drugs when a clear majority want it ended,especially the failed policy of incarceration for what the drug warriors are proclaiming a “health issue”.
    How long before we see “fatty” rehab centers or even chocolate clinics? Will there be urine tests to see if you ate chocolate recently or a duic law?

    • Deep Dish says:

      Ron and Nadine Obadia are from Ontario and Ron talked to Action News by phone. When they tried to cross into the U.S. for vacation with their one-year old, Canadian agents arrested them for allegedly having hash. All the couple had was chocolate, but they were handcuffed and separated from each other and their son.

      Ron Obadia: “I had to have faith that there was justice and that we’d end up back together.”

      The chocolate was tested at a crime lab and it came back negative for hash. That’s little consolation for the Obadia’s who spent $20,000 defending themselves.

      • primus says:

        I smell a class action lawsuit; when the authoritah use a method of detection which is KNOWN to give false positives, they are actively breaching civil rights.

    • Duncan20903 says:

      primus, here are two words for you to consider: sovereign immunity.


      clay, I think a better question is “what the heck kind of messages do children actually get?” When I was a wee lad I worried more about why the actors in Ultraman had lips movement which didn’t appear to match the sounds coming from their larynges than I did about the hippies choosing to enjoy cannabis. The only messages that I was even aware of came from my parents. I think the only reason I even knew about the conflict in Vietnam was because Dad was so pixxed off about Congressional inaction that it drove him to drink. Also two of my brothers-in-law ended up over there and who stashed their wives at our house during their respective hitches.

      Dad certainly sent me the message that pot was highly illegal. It was his extreme emotional disturbance on this issue that was the singular reason that led me to hit that first joint in Ridgefield CT that fateful night in 1977. I’m not sure why Mr. Frum is so certain that telling his kids that pot is illegal won’t backfire.

  11. Duncan20903 says:


    I was TCOB in College Park MD this afternoon. Just FYI, it was the University Of Maryland (UM) that put the college in College Park. I was on Route 1 crossing the Beltway and I noticed a sign that said that the road had been adopted. The outfit that gets to come along and clean up the trash I dumped on their adopted road is the UM Young Alumni SWAT Team.

    No sir, I’m not kidding. Well except about the littering part. C’mon, they might have found my name and address on an envelope among my discarded garbage, paid me a visit and shot me dead because I haven’t any dogs to shoot. Anyway, I’m on my way to the puppy mill and then off to buy a thermal shredder.

    • Windy says:

      Last time I was on that beltway was in 1970, we lived in Frederick for a time (68-70, while hubby was working for Bechtel at Eastalco), we came home in Aug of 70. We were so close to Woodstock and we were completely oblivious, never smoked our first weed until spring of 1970, then we came home and reconnected with some old friends who were stoners and that was that, we still use to herb, regularly, to this day.

      I just learned, yesterday, that the female half of that stoner couple just left this mortal plane last week, hope her next life is better than this one was, though she certainly seemed to enjoy it regardless her situation. She was a free spirit once her bipolar disease reared its head (in her 30s), her marriage fell apart shortly after that and was in and out of our lives ever since. Her form of bipolar disease was normal to manic, she never suffered the depression phase (like her mother and sister did), so she would not medicate with the pharmaceutical, she said it made her dull and foggy. She once told me she could write a book on how to travel the world on a broken shoestring. Of course to follow her method, you would have to be female and have a relative who worked for an airline and got you free tickets (just pay the taxes) to travel anywhere in the world.

      I need to gather these little stories of my life together and put them into My Life Story one of these days. I get stoned and something triggers a memory and I end up writing it on some forum or another instead of putting it in that document. Oh well, c’est la vie.

  12. Servetus says:

    New research shows a cancer-causing biomechanism involving miRNA expression that is specific to tobacco smoke. The study supports the Tashkin results showing there are real distinctions between tobacco and the non-carcinogenic properties of marijuana.

    The study raises some interesting new questions regarding the Kaiser study which demonstrated that combining pot with cancer-causing cigarettes neutralizes the cancerous effects of the cigarettes. Might smoking pot affect miRNA expression? More research is needed.

  13. Servetus says:

    People’s ability to digest alcohol comes from an enzyme called ADH4. Geneticists have traced the human trait that produces ADH4 to a hominid ancestor living at the branching point of gorillas, chimpanzees and humans 10 million years ago.

    Scientists theorize that the ability to digest alcohol developed as hominids consumed fermenting fruit they picked up off the ground.

  14. primus says:

    Can’t help but compare cannabis and tomatoes. When the Americas were discovered and all the new plants were taken back to Europe, tomatoes were banned because of their similarity to the fruit of potatoes, which is poisonous. It took much effort and many years to overcome this prohibition. Tomatoes went from being vilified as a toxin to being hailed as one of the healthiest foods we can eat. So it will be with cannabis. Once all the good things about its use are made known, people will laugh about our ignorance in banning it, just as we laugh at those Europeans who banned tomatoes.

    • allan says:

      tomatoes are in the nightshade family and the early illegal immigrants thought they were poisonous because of that relationship. Tho’ tomato does kinda rhyme w/ potato… and potatoes are also in the nightshade family… history can be so confusing!

      • Servetus says:

        Another problem for tomatoes involved pewter kitchen utensils and containers. Tomato juice leaches the lead out of the pewter, and the lead is poisonous once ingested.

        • allan says:

          interesting… meanwhile, if cooked in cast iron the acid and vitamin C draw iron into the juice, a good thing! So throw away those pewter cook pots! And no, I didn’t say to throw your ‘puters away…

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