Weekend open thread

Thought for the day:

Prohibition is not a victimless crime.

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51 Responses to Weekend open thread

  1. strayan says:

    4 years ago I read this:

    Thirteen Ways Drug Legalization Could Improve Real Estate Values
    Written by Steve Collett, UCLA School of Public Affairs Class of 2013 (Masters in Public Policy)

    A growing consensus is forming among economists and criminologists that drug prohibition, rather than drug use itself, is a leading cause of violence and property crime, resulting in urban decay and losses to real estate values.http://blogs.anderson.ucla.edu/zimancenter/2011/12/thirteen-ways-drug-legalization-could-improve-real-estate-values.html

    Today I read this:

    “There has been a huge bump in real estate prices due to the legalization of marijuana,” according to James Paine, managing partner at West Realty Advisors. “It’s massively pushed up raw land and industry prices.” http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/04/real_estate/marijuana-denver-housing-market/

    • Tony Aroma says:

      I wonder how the “bump” in real estate prices that is being seen will affect that lawsuit in CO where the plaintiff is claiming, among other things, that a marijuana farm near his property will drive down the real estate prices in the area (theoretically at some point in the future, possibly).

    • DdC says:

      That’s why it’s a “Bumper” crop…

      • DdC says:

        I’m really content with the civilized manner in which I can purchase cannabis in many forms and strains. With online menu’s the same as the Pizza shops, delivered to my door or I can go shopping at several outlets. Paid with a credit card at better prices than on the streets. Sealed, labeled with strain and weight. Very proper and respectable.

        So I’m not sure what to think about this…
        Unless its for charity, which it probably ain’t.
        Who came up with this idea and did they try it themselves? Smoking metal doesn’t sound pleasurable. Edible gold leaf brownies, but blunts I’m not so sure.

        – the makers of 24k gold rolling papers are branching out into blunt wraps

        $65 for 12 sheets.jpg
        Miley Cyrus’ line of 24k gold wrapping paper

  2. Servetus says:

    Understanding of developmental disorders is making strides despite efforts by prohibitionists to litter the scientific landscape with crack baby propaganda.

    June 4, 2015 — As it turns out, the conditions that attend poverty—what a National Scientific Council report summarized as “overcrowding, noise, substandard housing, separation from parent(s), exposure to violence, family turmoil,” and other forms of extreme stress—can be toxic to the developing brain, just like drug or alcohol abuse. These conditions provoke the body to release hormones such as cortisol, which is produced in the adrenal cortex. Brief bursts of cortisol can help a person manage difficult situations, but high stress over the long term can be disastrous. In a pregnant woman, the hormone can “get through the placenta into the fetus,” Levitt told me, potentially influencing her baby’s brain and tampering with its circuitry. Later, as the same child grows up, cortisol from his own body may continue to sabotage the development of his brain.

    Subjecting women and developing fetuses to undo stress is a lot like arresting them for drug use and forfeiting their babies to the State of Tennessee.

    • Windy says:

      history demonstrates that the closer a society comes to full liberty, the more prosperous it is…

  3. NorCalNative says:

    @Windy. In regard to your comment on the CBD-scammers.

    MY PROBLEM is giving an e-mail address to a criminal organization.

    According to TruthDig, giving up an e-mail address is almost as big a deal as someone knowing your passwords.

    I wouldn’t go there.

    Also, those horse tail plants you were pulling recently? I don’t have a clue what it is, except that if you make it into a compost tea and use that on cannabis plants as fertilizer it helps prevent Powdery Mildew.

    If you want to get totally freaky check out “closed-loop” cannabis cultivation. The outdoor version will BLOW your mind.

    Check out Dragonfly Earth Medicine I think you’ll “DIG” it. And, if you travel a lot and harvest time is elusive? Light deprivation cultivation may be an answer to your issue.

    • Windy says:

      Horsetail (Equisetum Arvense) – Herb Information, …
      Horsetail is a member of the Equisetaceae family; the sole survivor of a line of plants going back three hundred million years. The name “horsetail”, often used for …

      It’s a “living fossil”
      The wiki entry says it reproduces by spores instead of seeds, it also spreads from its roots, leave just a tiny piece of root and it’ll grow a whole new bunch of plants. Those spores may be how I got so many in that bed after I thought I’d cleaned out all the roots.

      I will add the ones I’m pulling now to the compost tea I have brewing in the greenhouse,. Speaking of the greenhouse, the Mint Julep Rose I have growing in there is absolutely gorgeous.

  4. thelbert says:

    here’s a victim: http://www.freepaulfree.com

  5. Francis says:

    Prohibition is not a victimless crime.

    It’s funny (well, ok, mostly just tragic) how frequently the prohibitionists’ ridiculous anti-drug rhetoric can be applied accurately against prohibition itself. Prohibition is not harmless. Prohibition supports terrorism. Prohibition sends the wrong message to our children. Prohibition is a ‘gateway policy’ that leads to totalitarianism.

    Somewhat related, in the previous thread, Kap included this gem from Mark Souder:

    I kind of hate to rain on the general consensus of enthusiasm for a free and open debate. I am one who is not particularly happy that we’re having a hearing called The Pros and Cons of Drug Legalization. I know the Chairman is very committed against — and has spent his whole career fighting illegal narcotics — but the plain truth of the matter is, while we live in a democracy, we do not have hearings called The Pros and Cons of Rape. We do not have hearings called The Pros and Cons of Child Abuse. We do not have hearings called The Pros and Cons of Racism. We do not have hearings called The Pros and Cons of Gangs.

    Well, you know what? I kind of agree that a hearing on “The Pros and Cons of Drug Legalization” is as ridiculous as the examples he cites — but it’s only ridiculous because prohibition should be beyond the pale. A civilized society shouldn’t need to debate the propriety of kidnapping and caging people for what they choose to put into their own bodies. I was also struck by the unintentional irony of the examples he chose. Every single one of the evils he identified is exacerbated by drug prohibition. Don’t like gangs? How about we stop empowering and enriching them and creating a structural incentive for their violence through drug prohibition? And racism? Good God. Is there any better example of institutionalized racism than the war on drugs? Rape? The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 200,000 adults and children are sexually abused behind bars in a single year. How much smaller would that number be if it weren’t for drug-war-fueled mass incarceration? Not to mention the fact that our drug policies have the perverse effect of encouraging greater use of alcohol, a drug that is involved in approximately half of all sexual assaults. And the drug war certainly contributes to child abuse in the form of the physical and sexual abuse of juvenile inmates, by breaking apart families via incarceration, and again, indirectly by encouraging the use of alcohol, a significant contributor to child and domestic abuse.

    • jean valjean says:

      Mark Souder…. the paragon of the right wing Christian hypocrite (has sex with his married secretary after making a video with her extolling chastity), and a drug warrior through and through (he was the author of the notorious Drug Free Student Loans Amendment of 1998 which took away Federal grants from students with a drug conviction). The cognitive dissonance of his hypocrisy leads him to project onto his selected scapegoats (drug consumers) all those things he and his drug war have produced: racism, rape, child abuse etc.

  6. Cost of drug war in Costa Rica too high, says former police officer http://tinyurl.com/ofzdeph

  7. DdC says:

    Gavin Newsom Photobombs Garberville
    Newsom was flanked by local stakeholders, politicians and members of his Blue Ribbon Commission on Marijuana Policy, a 21-member panel consisting of, as he put it, experts both advocating for and vehemently against pot.

    Industry Fears
    Small Cannabis Told Gavin Newsom What the State’s Weed Industry Wants. Will They Get It?

    Ukiah Tribe Downsizes Plans For Marijuana Farm
    A Ukiah tribe has downsized its plans for a medical marijuana farm, at least for now, as it continues to explore what will and won’t be tolerated by law enforcement officials.

    Defending Pot
    We learned then and we are learning now that prohibition does not work.

    G.R.I.P. – Get Rid Of Incumbent Politicians
    Ed Forchion, For The Trentonian NJweedman.com

  8. Pingback: Prohibition as Crime Itself | Spirit Wave

  9. Cannabis oil and chemical castration says:

    I was contacted yesterday by Dr. Jeff Hergenrather, of the Society of Cannabis Clinicians about my dad’s prostate cancer and the use of full extract cannabis oil.

    Dr. Hergenrather said he was surprised at my dad’s low PSA score based on using cannabis alone. He said that my dad’s numbers were more typical of patients ALSO using hormone blocking therapy (read chemical castration).

    CORRECTION. I checked with my dad, and indeed he is getting injections of an hormone blocking agent for testosterone called Lupron. Cannabis Oil ALONE is NOT what is helping my dad. I apologize for misleading information.

    Allopathic or Western Evidence-based medicine DOES have a role to play in cancer therapy in combination with cannabis.

    Dr. Hergenrather also suggested my dad would be better off adding more THC to the mix suggesting the 1:1 CBD-to-THC ratio is preferable to the 4:1, or the 2:1 he’s currently using.


  10. claygooding says:

    A Congressman who is also a lieutenant colonel if the Air Force Reserve wants to reduce by half the funds spent to eradicate marijuana plants.
    “This is a ridiculous waste of precious federal resources, especially when multiple states and jurisdictions have already legalized marijuana,” Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Calif., said in a Thursday news release. “It is time for the federal government to stop making marijuana use or possession a federal crime.” Snip”

    There is blood in the water and the sharks are circling,,sniffing out funding they can use for programs that work,,,we hope.


    • kaptinemo says:

      Yup. Aaaaaannnnnd – do I have to say it? Do I? “We predicted it would happen here, years ago.”

      Back at the beginning of the ’08 Crash, several predictions were made on this site, specifically:

      1) It was predicted here that when times eventually got tight, and State budgets began to shrink, the thievery-from-forfeiture on the part of the police would increase to levels that it is impinging on the public consciousness in a very negative way, and lo, it hath come to pass!

      2) It was also predicted that the dynamic that Clay described so succinctly (sharks; perfect analogy) would eventually occur: the DEA is itself a wounded shark, bleeding and swimming aimlessly.

      Lesser Federal sharks, which never had a chance before at taking a bite out of the DEA budget, are circling their wounded Fed ‘colleague’ with fins down and eyes rolling back: it’s lunch time.

      Truly, ‘no honor among thieves’, as they stole it all from us, tax-wise.

      Again, all predicted here last decade. Without use of crystal balls or postal envelopes. Accurate social and political prognostications from a buncha worthless amotivated ‘stoners’. Duh, “Cheech and Chong medicine types”, ya know, may-yan?

  11. Francis says:

    Portugal decriminalised drugs 14 years ago – and now hardly anyone dies from overdosing

    Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens. Comparable numbers in other countries range from 10.2 per million in the Netherlands to 44.6 per million in the UK, all the way up to 126.8 per million in Estonia. The EU average is 17.3 per million.

    Perhaps more significantly, the report notes that the use of “legal highs” – like so-called “synthetic” marijuana, “bath salts” and the like – is lower in Portugal than in any of the other countries for which reliable data exists. This makes a lot of intuitive sense: why bother with fake weed or dangerous designer drugs when you can get the real stuff? This is arguably a positive development for public health in the sense that many of the designer drugs that people develop to skirt existing drug laws have terrible and often deadly side effects.

    • Matt says:

      Francis, the statistic of “drug overdose” has little validity. The truth is that there has never been any evidence to support the concept of fatal “heroin overdose”, taking this one drug (morphine) as an example. Governments and their agencies know this and intentionally misreport deaths as “overdose” deaths when they are actually due to mixed-drug episodes and other causes. They do this to demonise substances and in an attempt to justify “prohibition” due to the porported danger of a particular substance. I have found that a statistic of “drug overdose deaths” has to be analysed thoroughly before using it as the basis for any theories or opinions.

      • Francis says:

        Fair point. But I’d just make two points in response. To the extent that poly-drug overdose deaths are miscategorized as, e.g., “fatal heroin overdoses,” that shouldn’t affect the findings here which are just looking at the total number of drug overdose deaths. And to the extent that there’s a systematic bias to misidentify deaths having other causes as “drug overdoses,” I don’t know of any reason to expect that bias to be smaller in Portugal than in other EU countries. So the differences in various countries’ reported rates might still be instructive (and you have to admit, those differences are pretty striking here). But you’re right, just because these statistics seem to support the case for reform, that doesn’t mean we should just accept them uncritically.

      • claygooding says:

        With the record the drug warriors have I just accept that everything they tell you about a drug is stretched as far past reality as they can take it.

        Now the UK drug agency is claiming that marijuana use has taken a 20% decrease in recreational use among 18 to 34 yr old’s,,of course the same article talks about there are more people using cannabis medically,,in a country that swears it isn’t medicine but has the largest MMJ producing company in the world.

        So much hypocrisy at one time could cause schizophrenia.

        • jean valjean says:

          Discussion of the medical use of cannabis is an absolute rarity in Britain’s msm, even during the recent election cycle. Your point about G.W. Pharma certainly needs further investigation… someone, somehow, has smothered the kind of debate on mmj in Britain that is going on widely in the U.S. Also there is no provision for popular ballots in the U.K. electoral system. Perhaps that nice Mr Cameron will see sense and call for one on mmj, (and pig’s will fly in to vote on it).

        • B. Snow says:

          I suspect they’re still talking about the dangers/horrors of “Skunk” Cannabis = equating it with “Crack” Cocaine…

          (Or rather making a false analogy between them, which is scientifically speaking = Total Crap.)

          In a not exactly surprisingly turn of affairs (IMO), After their witch hunt of David Nutt, kicking him out of his job as the UK’s chief drugs adviser = For recommending legalization cannabis (or maybe just rescheduling? It’s been awhile and there system is different.)

          FWIW, Karma is biting them squarely in the ass!
          He’s gone on to be a major pain for the retentive among them, recently suggesting the medical use of LSD…

          for addiction, for obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It could even, some believe, help alleviate the anxiety felt by terminally ill people at the end of their life.

          Will they never learn?

        • Duncan20903 says:


          Will they ever learn? I don’t know, but they sure as heck didn’t wait for any research before sticking the synthetic cannabinoids on schedule I about a half an hour after learning that people were using them to get high.

          I’m no fan of synthetic cannabinoids. I don’t know if they are or could be turned into substances with valid medicinal utility. That’s my point…will we ever find out now that researchers can’t ethically give them to human beings.?

          Here’s a bit of arcana from the Federal naughty lists that I’ve just learned. I’m sure that anybody who was around in the 1970s/early ’80s recalls methaqualone at least by the brand name Quāālude(r). Those not familiar with that substance can get a rough idea of it’s market saturation from oxycodone. Like oxycodone it seemed that there was a never ending supply for black market vendors to sell despite being a so called “controlled” substance. How does one particular prescription drug achieve such a widespread black market supply? I understand the black market economy…it isn’t the fact that it was so available but because it was so much more available than any of the other popular names on the Federal naughty lists. Sure, Quāāludes(r) and Oxycontin(r) are good clean fun but there’s a whole laundry list of other substances with similar recreational attributes. Lots and lots of them IMO but I was never into downers and I absolutely detest opioids.

          In 1998 methaqualone was moved to Federal schedule I. Can someone please, please ‘splain to me how in the heck a substance with valid medicinal utility one day can become a substance with no valid medicinal utility the next?

  12. Servetus says:

    Prohibition is not a victimless crime. Yet, in nearly all cases, no victim acts as a plaintiff in a drug case. The plaintiff is always the government, whose status as ad hoc victim is questionable, if not ridiculous. The alleged victim of drugs often becomes the defendant, a complete moral inversion of a normal criminal trial procedure wherein the victim of a crime acts as plaintiff and voluntarily files a complaint to bring about a prosecution. These legal anomalies and contradictions appear to mean nothing to those who enforce drug laws, but then what else can we expect? Drug laws were never meant to make any sense. The laws are a belief system. A refusal to believe becomes the crime.

    • primus says:

      EXACTLY like a religion. Just like a religion, to question is a crime. Just like a religion, prohibition is long on rhetoric and short on facts. Long on ‘morality’ and short on logic. Long on rules and short on common sense. Long on unquestioning obedience, short on freedom.

      • Duncan20903 says:


        One of the most amusing assertions made by a sycophant of prohibition happened when there was a minor debate in Congress about cannabis. The lady prohibitionists said, “they can’t legalize that. It’s against the law!”

  13. joe minella says:

    The war on drugs: So WRONG for so LONG.

  14. Frank W. says:

    What was on the “60 Minutes” pot story last night? I missed it due to a scheduling conflict with the Belcher family.

  15. OuthousesRPeepL2 says:

    “For the people who are enamored with the idea with the income, the tax revenue from this, go to Colorado and see if you want to live there,” he said. “See if you want to live in a major city in Colorado where there’s head shops popping up on every corner and people flying into your airport just to come and get high. To me, it’s just not the quality of life we want to have here in the state of New Jersey, and there’s no tax revenue that’s worth that.”


    • Duncan20903 says:


      “Never let the facts get in the way of disseminating an effective piece of hysterical rhetoric”
      ~~ The Prohibitionists’ Motto

      I’ve got my fingers crossed and hope that Gov Christie wins the Republican Party nomination. He doesn’t have a prayer of winning and I’ve no doubt in my mind that he’d cause a boatload of events that are more entertaining and fun than a butthole of monkeys.

    • Ask Your Doctor if FUCKITAL is right for you says:

      When I hear Christie use his mouth to jerk-off about cannabis, what reaches my ears is a FAT defense of BIG FAT PHARMA.

      According to Jersey’s official website they’re home to 14-of-20 of the World’s biggest Fat Pharma companies.

      • Duncan20903 says:


        After further reflection I’ve decided that if anyone could lead this country to victory in the war on (some) drugs it would be Gov. Christie. All he’d have to do is to say is that if someone gets caught getting high that he’ll sit on their heads and fart until they either capitulate or die from anoxia.

  16. MJ Verite says:

    Ah, Christie, the portly, potty-mouthed pork-shoveling plutocrat–may he march victorious through the primaries–with his feet of clay. I’m not sure his (schtum on a) schtick will play well outside the Garden state.

    I’m sure he’s quite pleased with the influx of Coloradans fleeing the anarchy that arose when that devil weed hit the stores.

  17. DdC says:

    NBC’s Dateline Sheds Light on Cannabis Oil for Epileptic Kids

    • Frank W. says:

      OT (or maybe not) but I think this cartoon is accurate. It’s supposed to be about the TPP and it could be applied to Choomsky’s cannabis policy:

      • Duncan20903 says:


        Mr. Obama’s political career was spent in a pay to play environment of corruption. Even if he turns out to have been the Mother Theresa of Illinois politicians, the corruption was systemic and entrenched. It’s just not possible for that environment to not have had a very, very significant influence on the molding and development of his political philosophies. But after considering the political system on Capitol Hill I very much doubt that Mr. Obama is pining for the fjords and I’m sure that he knows the definition of quid pro quo.
        4 of Illinois’ last 7 governors went to prison
        That dates back to Election Day 1960 when the first of those seven governors was elected.

        • jean valjean says:

          ESPECIALLY if he turns out to be the Mother Theresa of Illinois:
          “… Mother Teresa seemed to favor the darkly wealthy while offering nothing but prayer to the poor. The study points out how she accepted honors and grants from Haitian dictator Jean-Claude Duvalier, a man known for the severe mistreatment of his own people while living in a bubble of luxury. When asked to return donated money from the corrupt banker Charles Keating, she remained silent and she also accepted money from Robert Maxwell, later discovered as stolen money. She had millions of dollars transferred to secret accounts to which Larivée asked once again, “Given the parsimonious management of Mother Teresa’s works, one may ask where the millions of dollars for the poorest of the poor have gone?” When floods and chemical disaster hit her home of India, there were no financial relief efforts to be found.”


        • Duncan20903 says:


          Well I guess I chose a lousy metaphor. I must admit that’s just about par for the course when it comes to the catholic church from where I’m sitting. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter because there’s very little chance of me believing that Mr. Obama wasn’t up to his eyeballs in pay to play quid pro quos. But quite frankly jean I find your petty bullshit to be quite annoying so now you get to go sit with DdC in the idiot box.


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