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Legalization as a means to law and order

One of the tough jobs we have is that so many people have been led to believe that legalization means chaos, when in fact it’s just the opposite. This is where the LEAP message has been so effective, and it needs to be hammered home time and time again to reach so many of those who are afraid of legalization.

James P. Gray has an excellent OpEd: Ballot Measure Is Way to Properly Police Pot

Our marijuana policy must change in order to achieve the following goals:

  • Reduce marijuana consumption by children.
  • Stop or reduce the violence that accompanies the growing and distribution of marijuana.
  • Stop or reduce the corruption that accompanies the growing and distribution of marijuana.
  • Stop or reduce crime both by people trying to get money to purchase marijuana and by those under its influence.
  • Reduce the harm to people who consume marijuana.
  • Reduce the number of people we must put into our jails and prisons.

He goes on to list a number of advantages of a legalized system (putting street drug dealers out of business, improving purity, etc.), and ends with:

Under this initiative, all crimes committed by people under the influence of marijuana would still be prosecuted, just like we do today with alcohol-related offenses. Holding people accountable for their actions, instead of what they put into their own bodies, is a truly legitimate criminal justice function.

Interestingly, also at the Sac Bee and following the same general line of thought is Paul Armentano’s Prohibition of pot feeds lawlessness

This absence of state and local government controls jeopardizes, rather than promotes, public safety.

For example: Prohibition abdicates the control of marijuana production and distribution to criminal entrepreneurs (e.g., drug cartels, street gangs, drug dealers who push additional illegal substances).

This is good stuff, and an excellent way to de-fang the crass attempts by some prohibitionist law enforcement lobby groups to claim the high ground on law and order. (see also LEAP’s appropriate press release: Cops & Judges Support Calif. Assembly Marijuana Legalization Votes on Tuesday — Law Enforcers Say Ending Prohibition Will Improve Public Safety)

….

Of course, one can hardly miss the opportunity to check out the comments on articles like this, and there is a pretty spirited comment section on the Armentano article, including one rather vocal prohibitionist named fsteph, who follows a truly bizarre line of thought that I’ve seen pop up more often lately — that libertarianism supports prohibition!

fsteph wrote on 01/10/2010 11:47:56 AM:
NewAmerican – Wrong again. As a lifetime libertarian I know what life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness truly means. This new libertarianism is nothing less than a way of keeping our private lives from any moral scrutiny. A true libertarian resists the pull to privatize all morality — and instead argues that society can’t survive unless we all support the public good. We do not live alone in this society. Your actions, especially driving and working loaded (drugs and/or alcohol), can kill your coworker or an innocent bystander (medical research shows that it impairs memory and motivation). Public order is essential for liberty to exist. New libertarians conveniently ignore this truth.

I’ll ask again, is law simply a flexible arrangement whereby we condone any behavior we find inconvenient to restrain?

I just don’t get it. Have these folks actually read anything about libertarian thought? Sure, I understand that some libertarians focus more on civil libertarianism and others focus more on financial libertarianism, but a self-proclaimed lifetime libertarian being… pro-prohibition? Unreal.

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47 comments to Legalization as a means to law and order

  • claygooding

    When you have no sound reasoning for your stance against or for anything,baffle them with bullshit.
    When a proby accused me of providing bias information without any evidence,I showed him the evidence,then showed him where the government provides skewed statistics and studies based on evidence that involves
    chemicals showing harm from marijuana,when it would be impossible for anyone to ingest,smoke or vaporize enough marijuana to receive the amount of chemicals that the study had administered to their test subjects. I also brought forth the fact that the study was done explicitly for finding harm and was not based on medical testing or under circumstances that any person would experience. Have not heard from him since,but his parting shot was that sometimes the government has an obligation to protect it’s citizens and especially the “children”. My parting shot was that if the government was trying to protect “children”,they would end the prohibition tomorrow and remove the profits from marijuana,so dealers that don’t check ID’s wouldn’t be the source for marijuana.

  • permanentilt

    “argues that society can’t survive unless we all support the public good”

    Wow, I didn’t realize Libertarians were such socialists.

    Also, I can’t figure out what legalization has to do with “driving and working loaded”, is he saying that you can’t be fired for going to work drunk, or sued when you hurt someone? Sweeeeeet!

    I’m also curious about this “medical research” he raves about

  • kaptinemo

    The American Left has a tendency to think that what the Repubs have been doing the past 30 years has been ‘libertarianism’, when in fact it’s been straight-up crony monopoly capitalism.

    So the Libs have been dragging the words ‘libertarianism’, ‘libertarian’, etc. through the mud, lately. Funny, really, when you realize the origin of the word ‘liberal’ came from classic ‘liberals’ being libertarians…as were the Founders. That’s where a lot of this confusion is coming from…and where a lot of tin-plated ‘libertarians’ ragging on libertarianism seem to be coming from, as well.

  • ezrydn

    Will tomorrow’s CA Assembly vote be televised and, if so, off which website?

  • Buc

    fsteph is no libertarian.

    As a libertarian myself, a real one, I believe there are two possibilities regarding his/her comment:

    fsteph honestly believes that he is right and lives in a warped world where libertarianism is okay with government moralistic crusading

    or

    fsteph is attempting to undermine libertarianism by giving it a bad name and confusing people as to what it’s all about.

  • Buc

    To add on, even if you are a hardcore financial libertarian, prohibition (being a government program that is funded via taxes and wouldn’t survive the cost/benefit analysis) is completely contradictory to what you subscribe to as a financial libertarian.

  • Bruce

    New word; illibertarian? LOL
    Illiberality. lol
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/illiberal

  • clay barham

    America was founded on individual liberty and local government no more than one day’s horseback ride from the governed. The 19th century Democrat was the staunch defender of state’s rights, which, under Federalists, Whigs and Republicans was assigned the role of slavery’s justifiers. The civil war cost us local government, the laws affecting behavior rising to the states and then the Federal government, way outside the one-day horseback distance rule that worked so well. The vigilante movements in the West and South were remnants of local home rule, where citizens concerned with the way they were governed took action to right the wrongs. The Tea Party Movement is another example of citizen participation against the governing elite centered far, far from the folks. It demonstrates the founding ideals of America are still the dominant tradition. The 20th century Democrats have declared war on Tea Parties as vigilantes and on America’s founding traditions, as cited in THE CHANGING FACE OF DEMOCRATS, Our Lost Libertarian Roots on claysamerica.com.

  • DdC

    They usually broadcast anything from Sacramento on the The California Channel, ch 33 in Central Cali.

    The California channel schedule lists 9 am for Assembly Public Safety Cmte. (LIVE) A group of police officers, judges and prosecutors who fought in the failed “war on drugs” is cheering this Tuesday’s upcoming marijuana legalization votes in the California Assembly’s Public Safety and Health committees.

    Cops & Judges Support Calif. Assembly Marijuana Legalization

    fsteph is a liberalterrorist, more of a Neo-Libertarian, which is the same as Neoconservatives and Neoliberals. A more accurate title would be Fascists.

  • DdC

    The Tea Party Movement is another example of corporate manipulation on naive twits. Astroturf, not grass roots that Big Pharma and Insurance paid $650 million in propaganda. Teabog ditzo’s follow nazis rush limbog and glum beck, not Americans and certainly not for their life liberty or pursuit of happiness.

    Big Money Pulling the Strings of Protests

    Big Money Pulling the Strings of the Drug War

    Corporate Scum Thugs are Drug Worrier Scum Thugs

  • “society can’t survive unless we all support the public good”

    Interesting. Two Google results: this post and http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/4550-loving-the-darkness from 1998 entitled “Loving the Darkness, America’s New Libertarianism”. (also on “the Chuck Colson Center for Christian Worldview ™”)

  • Jon Doe

    The Teabaggers seem less like protesters of big government and more like middle-age white folks protesting a black man in high office. Not to say the movement is entirely racist, but most of these tea folk seemed to have loved the eight years of Bush (or, at the very least, love pundits who loved Bush), the dude who created one of the biggest bureaucracies in history, invaded a sovereign land under false pretenses, tortured POWs, imprisoned who knows how many on zero evidence and without a trial, and was, I have no doubt, one terror attack away from declaring outright marital law and rounding up all undesirables.

    Why is it only now they’re coming out to protest a “big government” (as if every precending president *hadn’t* increased the size and power of the federal government) and decidedly non-white president whose current sins are pretty much spending as much money on governmental and corporate reforms (necessary or unnecessary) as was spent on bombing poor people in foreign lands?

    Anyway, if the Teabaggers were *truly* against big government encroaching on individual rights, they would totally be sided with us, the anti-prohibitionists. But I’ll bet big money that the vast majority of the Joe/Jane Sixpacks who make up the Tea Party Movement are thoroughly of the “drugs are bad, round up all the druggies, especially the dark-skinned ones” mindset.

  • Bruce

    ‘Lord of the flies’, on steroids.
    A great story of children shipwrecked and growing up on an island, unsupervised. Insanity soon prevails.

  • DavesNotHere

    The term libertarian is being muddied just like the terms liberal and conservative have been. In fairness, it is defined different by just about everyone. “Libertarian” encompasses a great deal of area, but fsteph is outside the area we generally think of.

    Libertarians are also assumed to be anarchists quite a bit. That one I get. Generally libertarians believe a government should exist and largely admire the US Constitution as a means to protect individual liberty. They want the feds out of almost everything it has its boots on now, and think we’d all be better off if things were run closer to home. One day by horse sounds about right for where the vast majority of government power should rest. Especially in this day and age.

    Libertarians are associated with free markets and the term free markets is being muddied as well. You can and certainly should have “regulations” in free markets. A market isn’t free if fraud is being used or force exerted. There is also a place for government to ensure transparency and honestly during transactions. Government shouldn’t regulate supply and demand through price controls, central planning, and the like, which is what libertarians mean by free markets. Free markets can be regulated to help ensure transparency and identify/reduce fraud, as the term regulate is now being used.

    A lot of libertarians do not believe in the concept of corporations or insurance. Liability is personal responsibility and using corporations to shield people from liability doesn’t always fit the libertarian mindset. A group of people getting together and sharing liability is different from our corporate bought laws that shield them from liability. Just like government shields themselves from liability.

    But anyway, making the point that legalization means “we” take control of the drugs and out of the hands of the people they are afraid of is hard for them to counter. Al Capone, the Purple Gang, Pablo Escobar, street gangs all over the US, etc. That should be an effective argument for people willing to listen to reason and logic.

    Legalization doesn’t mean anarchy, it means regulation and control and study and research and trial and error and most of those decisions should be made within one day by horse, not in DC or even most state capitols.

  • DavesNotHere

    Jon Doe you might want to get to know the human beings in the Tea Party movement a little better than a knee jerk stereotype of them being racists.

    Eric Odom from Chicago was hardly a Bush supporter or cheerleader, and he was one of the “founders”, if there is such a thing, of the Tea Party movement. The Libertarian Party of Illinois and Chicago have been picketing outside post offices on Tax Day for years. Its good free media one day a year, and there is plenty of documentation of those Tax Day protests in Illinois. Not that the Tea Party movement is Libertarian Party based, but the idea for that type of Tax Day “tea party” protest has been being used in Chicago and Illinois for a good decade.

    Chicago was the location of the first Tea Party, and there were gobs of Libertarians there. Tea Party Libertarians that two years earlier stood out on Tax Day protesting the money being spent on war. And who have no problem voicing their support for ending the drug war, unlike Barack Obama or his Democrats.

    Open your mind Jon Doe, and maybe you’ll see most of the Tea Party movement wants freedom and aren’t just blind Republican Party sycophants. Some of the late comers to the Tea Party may hate drugs, but we can convince them that at the very least, those decisions should be local and not federal mandates.

  • Bruce

    Those Tea Party members who are for prohibition ought to be banned to Coffee shops.
    Attempting to sow division within the Tea Party movement…………………………………
    done.

  • DavesNotHere

    Its worse than that Bruce. The liberal elites are trying to demonize them as being worse than racists to define the “teabaggers” as being potential terrorists so the Chicago Democrat cops can infiltrate their organizations to not only spy on them, but to participate in the organization and interrupt it. The Chicago Democrat cops did that with the anti-war protesters during the Bush years, and that included many libertarians being involved in those anti-war organizations.

    You think the liberal elite police forces like we see in Chicago won’t share Jon Doe’s ignorant assessment and use that faulty logic to violate human rights like they loved doing in Chicago?

  • DavesNotHere — I can certainly understand where John Doe’s views about the tea-party movement come from. I have absolutely no idea what the “movement” is, and I try to keep up with these things. Sure, I understand the basis of it (the no taxation without representation business), and I know that it, in general, seems to have some libertarian ideas (limited government in some areas, less taxes in all areas, more spending in certain areas) the whole thing has become, in the past year, such a circus, particularly with being almost wholly sponsored by Fox News, that the only thing I could say for sure that it stands for is… dissatisfaction. Additionally, there are about a dozen organizations that seem bent on owning or co-opting “tea party,” from FreedomWorks, Tea Party Patriots, Our Country Deserves Better, Americans for Prosperity, 912 project, etc. It may take some years of settling for the tea-party to develop a solid identity again.

    At this point, I’m much more confident in defining libertarianism, than I am in defining tea-party-ism.

  • Jon Doe

    DavesNotHere: Honestly, all I know about the Tea Party Movement is the stuff that’s being pimped on Fox News. From what that bastion of rational thought shows me the teabaggers seem to be made up of neocons protesting one potential tyrant while seemingly being unaware that they eagerly supported another tyrant for eight long years. I.E. to me it just looks like the public demonstrations wing of Fox News. But honestly, I don’t care. Once the Teabaggers start to actively and loudly protest prohibition and all other government attempts to regulate our bodies and our personal lives, then I’ll start caring.

  • chris

    If they were to treat pot like alcohol,like in a car accident or something.They would have to have some type of new testing for THC content.As of now they can’t tell if you got high 5 min. ago or 5 hours ago and in some cases 5 weeks ago.Not that anyone getting high is going to cause any problems in the first place that is.

  • DavesNotHere

    I can’t argue with any of that Pete and your last sentence is pretty much right on. The Tea Parties have attracted a wide range of people that want less government and more freedom and they all define what that means to them differently. Taxed Enough Already (TEA) was the original rallying cry, but I don’t think you could even use that to generalize them now. And then Glen Beck and others jumped on board, and you are right, it is just a jumbled mess to try and pigeonhole the movement right now because it so fluid and changing.

    In Illinois, there were a lot of local “tea party” groups formed that are getting actively involved in door to door politics right now working in primaries. They are doing this on their own and not inside or as part of the Republican Party. That says something. The media certainly isn’t giving us an accurate picture of what the Tea Party movement is up to, especially in Illinois.

    But there isn’t a centralized Tea Party organization, and they don’t want or need one. Each different local Tea Party group seems to be defining the type of candidates they want to work for and I guess we’ll see during the next couple elections more about them. Proft and Adam A. were not against medical marijuana in Illinois, as one example, and those two have gotten more Tea Party support than the establishment Republicans in that race opposed to medical marijuana. Outside of Illinois and two other states, I have little knowledge about what is going on in the movement. But there are hundreds of local organizations that have popped up and they aren’t taking marching orders from Beck, Palin, Republicans, or anyone else, I do know that.

    I’d still say the movement is much more conservative than libertarian, but it is a movement where BOTH are invited and are participating, which isn’t a bad thing to me. That contributes to the problem of defining it, along with every local group having their own mix and issues.

  • DdC

    Jon Doe bla bla bla in the Tea Party movement bla bla knee jerk stereotype bla racists.

    WTF DavesNotHereMentally, You didn’t watch fox news dude? Kneejerk reactions are exactly how moneysluts and prohibitionists react. Like you. Blind allegiance and you will never see a dime. Same bozo’s believing Rayguns was going to trickle down wealthy profits to the workers. Bull fucking shit! Taking the exceptions, the very very few if any exceptions as you are trying to do is like saying there are blacks in the KKK. Probably true at one time. But nothing is farther from the actual truth. I’m sure there are different levels of racism among the KKK. But they still fall under a racist organization. Same as the Teabog Dipshits. As Jon Doe said, where the fuck were they when the lie in Iraq started? You suck up to the prohoibitionists teabog ditzo’s and then think anyone will believe a word you say?

    Protesting affordable health care is not protesting, its working for the corporations sponsoring the idiots at the tune of $650 million bucks. If this unheard of so called founder Eric Odom did start it he was over run by the Dick Armey and Joe Liebermans Insurance corporations. Only press was Glum nazi Beck and Lush rimjob. Same thugs swiftboating Kerry or fear mongering vote counters in 2000. Thugs out shouting peaceful town halls ain’t Liberty. Moneysluts dude. Thats the entire teabog movement in a nutshell.

    You did good keeping the $100,000.00 an hour salaries for the CEO’s while the working class still goes to the ER at 10 times more expense than private care. You protest kids preventing illness so the drug thugs can sell their pills after they get sick and can’t afford insurance. All while stashing their tax responsibility in offshore Cayman Island accounts. Pitifuckingfools!

    Stop your BS, you word has fallen, I left you three links with hundreds of sites and articles and you just say no. BS! Liberalterrorists are neocons, not Libertarians. Where were the cowards when Boosh bailed out the Wallstreet boys? Only when it threatened their skimming of the top profits did they buy astroturf ditzo’s who would protest anything their masters dictate. Not a peep about Boosh Liberal government or Tax debt. Not a peep about the trillion to the Military Industrial Complex or the Drug War. Protest? Patooy on your seudo protest. These lemmings are booze chugging white khristzions killers for geeeezus persecuting stoners snce forever. Just boring fascists dude. I suggest you not only open your mind but pull your head out of your ass while your at it! Grow some balls dude, stop following Radio DJ’s oxy frothings!

    GOP Chickenhawk Deadbeats sticking Taxpayers with the bill
    http://tinyurl.com/GOPerverts

    Eat the Rich
    http://tinyurl.com/EatheRich

    Eat the Rich! 2
    http://tinyurl.com/EatheRich2

    Dude get over your “Liberal” paranoia. Ain’t been nuthin but neolibs and neocons since Kennedy. Carter was a member of the Tri Lateral Commission and a Nuclear Physicist. Klintoon was Boosh CIA at Oxford and spent his presidency as a neocon. Police Actions and Pillaging the Constitution. Obama is working for the Oligarchy, that is comprised of Neocons. Predominately GOPerverts. Get real. I think you are not ready for prime time dude. Maybe better off arguing with boomer yuppies also gathering information from the boob tube instead of reality.

    GOPerverts ARE the Oligarchy

  • DavesNotHere

    “Once the Teabaggers start to actively and loudly protest prohibition and all other government attempts to regulate our bodies and our personal lives, then I’ll start caring.”

    Fair enough. I hope you will hold the Democrats and liberal organizations to the same standard then. They aren’t exactly protesting prohibition either. Haven’t heard anything against prohibition from the likes of SEIU, AFSCME, NEA, AFT, ACORN, AFL-CIO, UAW, AARP or very many liberal/progressive think tanks either.

    In Illinois, two Republican Governor candidates with arguably the most tea party support have better stances on medical marijuana than the establishment Republicans, and as far as we can tell, those two are also better than the two Democrats running for Governor. That’s an example that I wouldn’t use to define the tea party, but it is an interesting anecdote. Tea Party Republicans might be better than Democrats on medical marijuana, you never know.

  • Just me

    fsteph is no libertarian.

    As a libertarian myself, a real one, I believe there are two possibilities regarding his/her comment:

    fsteph honestly believes that he is right and lives in a warped world where libertarianism is okay with government moralistic crusading

    fsteph is attempting to undermine libertarianism by giving it a bad name and confusing people as to what it’s all about.

    …Or Steph if fully conditioned to collectivism instead of individualism .

    Steph:A true libertarian resists the pull to privatize all morality — and instead argues that society can’t survive unless we all support the public good. We do not live alone in this society.

    That right there says to me Steph doesnt realize he/she has been conditioned,Doesnt realize the contitution supports individualism.

  • Paul

    Davesnothere: I think you summed up the general ideas of libertarianism pretty well.

    The tea party movement also seems more conservative than libertarian, but there is an awful lot of sympathy for financial libertarian ideas, which I appreciate. I think the odds are that the Republican party will absorb them, or they will absorb it, and we’ll wind up with a spate of more financially libertarian candidates (Republicans).

    I don’t know if we’ll get anything more in the way of freedoms out of the tea parties, but their hearts are in the right place, and as drug reformers we should view them more as potential allies than enemies. I’ll bet a lot more of them think drugs should be legalized than the average conservative Republican.

    As for Fox, I don’t think they are so bad. They provide some counterbalance to the lies and opinion making at CNN, MSNBC, and the BBC. We’ve all grown so used to the political positions of the main stream media that Fox seems rather shocking when they push the opposite agenda.

    Yes, Fox has some nasty law and order positions, but they also have Andrew Napolitano. Napolitano hates the drug war and hotly defends constitutional liberties. They also give air time to other libertarians, which is something the mainstream media seem very reluctant to do.

    For me, I am most interested in whatever mechanism or pathway is going to maximize liberty. If someone is travelling the same direction as myself, even if only for a short distance, I’m happy to give ’em a ride.

  • Jon Doe

    DavesNotHere: Unless either Democrats or Republicans “see the light” on the whole of the issue of prohibition (and not just piddling stuff like MMJ), neither will ever see my support.

  • DavesNotHere

    DdC, I stopped believing everything the corporate media was pushing years ago. FOX and MSNBC are horrible propaganda channels. Would you mind pointing us to a political group you do approve of?

    So how many people active and involved in the Tea Party movement do you personally know, and how many of their meetings and events have you attended DdC? Or have you just read other people’s propaganda and made assumptions without first hand knowledge?

    I know what I see DdC, and I can only “judge” the tea party movement from my perspective, not yours. From my perspective, I don’t see the centralized control and conspiracy behind the group like you do. I see a very decentralized movement with local groups making their own decisions without taking any marching orders from anyone, let alone Dick Armey or Rush Limbaugh. One tea party group might endorse one candidate, and another group two counties over might endorse another one. If the Tea Party was being controlled centrally by the likes of Rush and Dick, there wouldn’t be any confusion on how to define the movement.

    I wouldn’t say the tea party movement is perfect in any way shape or form or everything they believe is right. For whatever reason, a bunch of people who want government out of some aspect of their lives are getting together and are getting politically active. We’ll see what kind of actual politics comes out of that in 2010 I believe.

    It isn’t paranoid to point out actual things that have actually happened, dude. If there is some truth or fact I have wrong, let me know, I usually will admit it.

  • DavesNotHere

    JonDoe sounds good to me and I am with you there. We’re on the same team. I won’t support drug warrior teabaggers either and will point them out if I can. I don’t mean to imply the teabagger movement is great or perfect or anything like that, just that not all of them are drug warriors and there is some hope they can be our ally instead of the enemy in the future.

    Paul, I think in some areas the tea partyers will take over the Republican party and in other areas they will fight them and other areas use another party. Who knows beyond 2010. Maybe they’ll even be more libertarian than conservative by then. They are already complaining about too much government power, so they are falling right into our drug war reform hands.

  • DavesNotHere

    “Legalization as a means to law and order” is the topic. I started reading “After the war on drugs; Blueprint for Regulation” from this post

    http://www.drugwarrant.com/2010/01/after-the-war-on-drugs-2/

    Great effort putting all that together and I appreciate them for that. Don’t know where to begin to disagree, as I’m not a fan of a lot of it, but they are from over there and its professionally done so I’m still reading.

    What does law and order look like in the US? Get the feds out other than imports/exports, border, commerce, federal lands type regulations? I believe each state would then have the power of prohibition. So maybe the American response to their book would have 50 different models as a good start.

    Has that ever been tried? Model legislation for legalization in each state? How do we accomplish that? Can we put together a working group in each state to draft visions of what they would like to see?

    The book Transform put out from the UK and EU http://www.tdpf.org.uk is showing us American’s up. We’ve got work to do.

  • DavesNotHere

    Learning from our different experiences is what we should be doing. We all see things from our perspective and we can learn from others perspectives.

    I just heard a piece on BBC radio about American women giving birth in prison while their ankles and wrists are shackled. During child birth, they are shackled so they don’t escape. While giving birth. That was in Pennsylvania if I remember right. Bad, unimaginable stuff. Is that on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc?

    Our entire thought process behind jail and police needs to flipped upside down and shook. So much work. Its your choice when to get off the train to anarchy. This world is big enough to have a libertarian state and an anarchy state.

  • Just me

    I could be wrong, but didnt Pete post something on how we are all on the same side? Wow guys. Is this the economy taking its toll on some of us? Venting on each other?

    Well on thing is true Pete, its better to vent here with words, not out there with violence.

    Just remember people, if things get real bad out there , eachother is all we will have.

  • DavesNotHere

    Pete, the laboratory of federalism would be a very welcome change. And an easier sell than the feds telling all the states to legalize under one federal policy.

    And then lower than state level, what works in Seattle might not in Spokane or Walla Walla on some issues, so we’d really need a variety of input from each state. No wonder Americans haven’t done something like Transform did yet. It could be 50(+) times the work.

    Transform has a ton of awesome ideas and information, don’t get me wrong. They make some assumptions I wouldn’t make, so my jumping off point would be different from theirs, but it is great they’re providing their jumping off point and is a lot more “doable” than anarchy, for example, so cheers to them for their groundbreaking, envelope pushing effort.

    Who could we put together in each state to come up with their state’s version of a jumping off point? I know something about Illinois, so for that state I guess I’d ask you for more ideas, and then try contacting LEAP, MPP, NORML, Greens and Libertarians, and all the already like-minded organizations to see if they might have people that would participate in putting together state and city life after the end federal prohibition. Columbia or Roosevelt U in Chicago did some drug war research I believe. That’s some kind of project there.

    California is at the leading edge of the US anti-prohibition movement and I plan on joining them ASAP. Its too darn much money to live there, but it just got a ton cheaper, so lucky me.

    Just me, yeah, I’m sorry about that.

  • Ultimately, we’ll have to deal with the Federal Government. Hopefully whoever is brave enough to open that DC dispensary will educate Congress and the upper level Federal employees about medicinal marijuana at least. The reason is that just about anything these days comes under Interstate Commerce: if you buy seeds across state lines, for instance, that’s Federal.

    I think the state by state approach is how they got alcohol legal as well. The amendment was repealed, but states were allowed to continue Prohibition if they wanted to, which is why we have “wet” and “dry” counties to this day.

    I don’t smoke-but interested in medical marijuana. The Federal angle is what physicians will need to have handled before they could legally prescribe and sell pot as medicine. Now they can “recommend” but not prescribe or study (in the United States, that is)

  • As a Libertarian, and one who ran for a spot on the 2008 national ticket (and lost to Wayne Allyn Root), I may be a bit more familiar with how many inside our party think.

    As a general rule, we believe in less government and more personal freedom. Not all of us personally support gay marriage or even ending drug prohibition. We do believe two consenting adults, regardless of gender combinations, have every right to marry. And that the human body is sovereign territory, free from any and all state control. We also believe greater freedoms come with greater responsibilities, and call for proper sanctions against those who abuse both and place the public at risk.

    The Libertarian Party is barely 40 years old, with a (somewhat deserved) reputation for being a bunch of wingnuts. But much of what Libertarians believe is simply common sense. And with more and more folks paying closer attention to the shamelessness of both Democrats and Republicans, we’re looking a little more attractive – and growing.

    We believe voters are at their most receptive moment to support a strong third party. The Libertarian Party, America’s third-largest political party, continues to get its house in order for all those we trust will stop by for a look. Time will tell.

  • DdC

    DdC, I stopped bla bla bla do approve of?

    Your words is shit, bring some facts dude. Actually do you even know the SEIU, AFSCME, NEA, AFT, ACORN, AFL-CIO, UAW, AARP are unions protecting workers over your moneysluts oppression and murder? You protest the workers and side with the multinational not even American corporations behind the war on some drugs and then still act like we don’t think you’re retarded? You protest health care workers making minimum wages over the Insurance CEO’s making $100,000.00 an hour and then think we should not think of you as a wingnut? Now thats gullible. Pitifuckingfool!

    So how many people bla bla bla without first hand knowledge?

    More empty words, you can’t even stay on topic and name what your teabog ditzo’s are even protesting. More BS.

    I know what I see DdC, and I can only “judge” the tea party movement from my perspective, not yours.

    What is that exactly? Name it or shut the fuck up.

    From my perspective, I don’t see the centralized control and conspiracy behind the group like you do.

    I rest my case, your a blind fool obedience to the corporations sponsoring the teabog dipshits.

    I see a very decentralized movement with local groups making their own decisions without taking any marching orders from anyone, let alone Dick Armey or Rush Limbaugh.

    Prove it. I’ve already shown you who and how much they spent. All for their own greedy profit. What have you brought except your silly words? You’re as bad as the trolls. BS!

    Bivings Group
    Bivings work, premised on the power of the Internet, engages in covert online attacks and web based front groups.

    The Wrecking Crew, on How Conservatives Rule

    One tea party group might bla bla bla Dick, there wouldn’t be any confusion on how to define the movement.

    What? Just watch fox reports idiot. You sound like the religious nuts spouting the dangers of Ganja with no physical reality base. Read their signs dude. Same cowards bailing out the corporations without a peep. Never heard of the protests against the corporate bailouts because they didn’t get the TV coverage of the Dick Armey. Posted and not read by you obviously. Your word is shit dude. Where’s the beef?

    I wouldn’t say bla bla bla of that in 2010 I believe.

    But that is propaganda and no truth invoked. “They” have an agenda and a mission statement and reps like Glum Bluck and Rush Limpbog. They do not protest government intervention or taxes spent on the lie in Iraq, or for the drug war or bailing out the Banksters last year. You lie and then act like we can’t read. BS!

    It isn’t paranoid bla bla bla let me know, I usually will admit it.

    Prove it or keep your BS coming and I’ll be happy to shove it up your ass. You’re just a suck up to me. The only thing you point out is your own cheap words on it. Prove one thing you said and then explain the logic behind protesting against affordable health care? I’ve shown you the results of your lapdogging. More people using the ER’s meaning more taxes for us workers to pay. More profits for Insurance companies not having to pay. Is it that difficult? Especially after your so called experience with politicians and the drug war. You really think these Wall St moneysluts care about your health? Naive twits have Free Speech rights but remember dude you can’t cure stupid and your word is shit. Bring some reality and a simple explanation as to what it is teabog dipshits are protesting? WTF is their problem? Don’t tell me again they hate government intrusion when I’ve shown you several times where they don’t. Bring it on teabogy! I even include U2b, you bring gossip. BS!

    Big Money Pulling the Strings of Protests

    Big Money Pulling the Strings of the Drug War

  • DavesNotHere

    DdC, I am sorry, I am done with you. You are not capable of communicating with me like a rational human being and show nothing but emotional reactions, absolutist judgments, and hostile insults. If I may borrow from your superiority complex, talk to me when you’ve figured out how to better control your emotional animal instincts. You have more interest in calling me names than in learning anything I might have knowledge of. Name calling like this isn’t productive so I’m not going to respond to you DdC.

  • DdC

    How many Teabog Dipshits do you see here?

    Battle in Seattle.

    Corporate Media Ignores Key Issues of the Anti-Globalization Protests
    In July of 2001, over 100,000 people went to Genoa to protest the G-8 meetings. Corporate television gave little recognition to the issues that were being raised by the protesters. CNN showed few protesters actually sharing their views or reasons for protesting. Instead, news correspondents briefly summed up the protest in terms of who was there. This broad summary format was significantly lacking attention to specifics of the meetings or the protests. On Fox networks, the Genoa protesters were all but ignored.

    February 15, 2003 anti-war protest
    The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world against the imminent invasion of Iraq. Millions of people protested in approximately 800 cities around the world. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.

    Global Ganja March 2009

    4/20 @ 4:20

    No teabaggers? Hummmmmmm

    So they didn’t exist to protest the tax paid corporate bailouts in 08,
    but $650 million later, for citizen bailouts… poof dare dey is.
    Same Dick Armey of Nixon or Cheney polidicks. opposing their Biraq lackeys mimicking debate ending with worse conditions on the people as a deterrent to not question authoritah and the status weird!

    Partisan BS is old and why prohibition exists… Again, there are no defined Liberals, Conservatives or Libertarians in DC government. Just Neocons. Each side starting with crap and then compromising on it. Truth is always the first casualty of war, including the war of politics between two opposing political employees of the same fascism. The only objective is divide and maintain dysfunction for profit. They sell wars and gullible twits buy it. They sell illness and then the treatments for it. Just like selling drugs on commercials. They sell fear of terrorists and we buy the Patriot Ax. Fear of drugs and we buy private prisons and bloated copshop budgets.

    Or selling religious beliefs or slavery or child labor or adulterated snake oils. Government is a band aid for sure, but its better than bleeding to death with corporations or when local politikops run amuck legislating for lobbyists. Corporations aren’t evil but they are not citizens either. No accountability for pollution or workers getting hurt is the reason for regulations. The more a local citizenry gets involved the less government bureaucracy, but there should never be a compromise on air and water quality babies breath and bath in. It should be outrageous to see a smoke stack spewing dioxides and asthma, let alone legal. Yes sir may I have another is the food of wingnuts and college freshmen and grunts getting spanked. Yet look around, what line are the teabog ditties in? Same Klintoon bashers trying to protest the police action monika diversion in Kosovo. Swiftboat rednecks couldn’t even make a proper peace sign. These as the teabogger so aptly put it, are Morans! No Pubic Option!

    Banksters have proven they can not be trusted with absolute power to police themselves anymore than any politician or sheriff. No one can trust humans. Ask the animals. We have to have checks and balances. That includes government and unions. Protesting living wages that would bring more taxes and less tax burdens to the individuals. Regulating the skimming off the top and frauds in the casino of Wall Street. Teaboggers were suckered into expelling their anger and racism onto Biraq Obombo by the same nazi IGFarben mindset of yesteryear. It sure as fuck can happen here and your fluxom just muddies the water, diverts attention to the suffering Americans and at the end of the day you pat yourselves on the back for kicking a minimum wage worker onto the streets because ACORN can’t assist because they have to buy lawyers for BS accusations.

    Unions are an evil necessity of corporate wealthy greed abusing citizens rights stock broker Harry Browne Libertarians refuse to include. Strictly and solely blaming it all on government. Anarchists can not exist in a capitalism society that works very well as long as checks and balances allow minimum wage to afford health care and housing and food. If it doesn’t then someone on the top is taking their share and for teabags to dangle their blind allegiance to such a contemptible un-American spectacle is a sad observance. But fighting against Nixon’s Ganjawar lie for so long, it ain’t a surprise anymore.

    If the protest benefits everyone, including the opposition, its legit. removing bogus Ganja/Hemp laws, living wages, clean air, jobs and peace etc. If the protest benefits a few and does harm to many, including the opposition, its a bogus plot based on greed. Police Actions misnomered as war, Treatments or Prohibitions are all manipulations and lies. A monopoly on harmful drugs outlawing non synthetic remedies is solely based on the greed of selling pills over the cure of free plants grown in herb gardens. etc Pills only treat symptoms. Pills have side effects requiring more pills. Pills require a huge fossil fool based infrastructure. No cure or prevention eliminating expensive “treatments” is pushed by Teabog dipshits. Happy with their fossil fools, their khristzion morals of morons clear-cutting 2000 yr old Sequoia’s in old growth forest producing fresh water and oxygen for their very own Jesus. Bible belt teabog pesticide abortionists killing doctors in church, amen.

  • Duncan

    “Hopefully whoever is brave enough to open that DC dispensary will educate Congress and the upper level Federal employees about medicinal marijuana at least.”

    I’ve met the man, and he intends to do so. He says he’s going to open up the day after the Congressional review period expires. We’ve got a group of really intelligent, politically active people forming the DC Patient Advocacy Coalition. As a matter of fact, we’re having a town hall meeting tomorrow night at 2835 16th St NW Washington DC 20009 from 7-9 PM. No cameras, cell phones or other such recording devices will be allowed in order to protect patient privacy.

    http://www.dcpatients.org/meeting.html

  • DavesNotHere

    This was too good to pass up so against my better judgment…

    The New York Times seems to back my perspective on the teabaggers more than it backs up yours DdC.

    Its just a really loose conglomeration of people with all kinds of motivations getting together to do something about “it”.

    Most of them were flirting with their peers in grade school during the Battle in Seattle, so blaming them for things that happened before they finally woke up and got involved or were old enough to care doesn’t discredit what they are doing now. I didn’t say they are perfect, I just defended them for what they really are instead of the media made perception (from both sides) of them. And Chicago teabaggers are most likely totally different than NY teabaggers and Vegas teabaggers. They are a huge group of conservatives/liberatarian/stayathomemoms/wingnuts/moneylsuts/religofascists/ and everything else you want to call them, but at the end of the day, the teabaggers would agree to end federal prohibition before the Democratic or Republican parties will. Its a freedom movement still in the makings and changing over time.

    Look who the Times quoted in this article too.

    <In Power Push, Movement Sees Base in G.O.P.

    The Tea Party movement, named after the original tax revolt in 1773, might be better described as a diverse, rambunctious and Internet-connected network of groups, powered by grass-roots anxiety about the economy, bailouts and increasing government involvement in health care. At one extreme are militia members who have shown up at meetings wearing guns and suggesting that institutions like the Federal Reserve be eliminated. At the other are those like Ms. Przybylski, who describes herself as “just a stay-at-home mom” who became agitated about the federal stimulus package.

    And if the Democrats are big-government socialists, the Republicans, in the Tea Party mind, are enablers.

    “If you want to have revenge against the Republican Party for using you for so many years, the best way is to turn around and use the Republican Party to your advantage,” said Eric Odom, a Tea Party activist in Chicago who recently started a political action committee, and on his blog urged Tea Partiers to stop complaining about the Republican Party and “move in and take it over.”

  • DdC

    I don’t want revenge, I want America back from neocons. No republicans are involved in the teabog dipshits, just limbog racist, fascist neoconjobs. Like Lieberman and the Dick Armey. Odom may have started something local but like the recall in Cali. It was taken over and he was cast out. Who the fuck ever heard of Odom beside you and you’re probably making it up or you would have references. Skolnick was researching Obombo in Chicago when he “died”. Most believe Obombo was chosen to do the bidding but he has no power structure of his own. Klintoon is lock stock and barrel tied with Bilderberg and Boosh. Stop your silly Liberal bashing and dividing that only diverts from the reality. Same old shit different fascists.

    Just like Aunuld getting in. 99% of the teabog dipshits are racist neocon cumwads eating more taxes than FDR and leaving with a huge bloated bureaucracy. Boosh is more of a Liberal than Biraq dude. Plus his right wingnut religionists and the media propaganda. Who gives a rats ass if you were in diapers in 99. They were activists protesting the World Trade Organizations. Your silly protest was rednecks getting a free beer to piss on Obombo. Not grass roots, Plastic astroturf. Just fascist slaves. You think the protesters in Seattle had 24 hour Faux News coverage? Or the anti war movement or the legalizers? Your foolish to believe the same prohibitionists are some how concerned about your health care or socialism. They are fucking socialists kid. I have as much respect for the Neocon Teabog dipshits as I do puke stains on the carpet. But then those who will not read have nothing on those who can not read. Again put up or shut up.

    GOPerverts ARE the Oligarchy

    GOP Chickenhawk Deadbeats sticking Taxpayers with the bill

    Eat the Rich

    Eat the Rich! 2

    The Ganjawar Fraud

    Big Money Pulling the Strings of Protests

  • DavesNotHere

    “Who the fuck ever heard of Odom beside you and you’re probably making it up or you would have references.”

    I just referenced the New York Times DdC. You have no interest in reality even when printed in the NY Times, you just wanna make people into boogeymen so you can insult them regardless of any reality. I get it now. Everyone who isn’t you sucks.

    And I admit, I am a Bilderberg agent out to rule the world by creating diversions arguing with you DdC. Sherman ran over my foot once and I never forgave him so the Illuminati directed me to use counter-tactics to defend the Order. (Seriously though, I appreciate a lot of Skolnicks research if not all his conclusions.)

    Now I’m done except to entertain myself.

  • DdC

    Now I’m done except to entertain myself.

    Sums up the entire Teabog Dipshits serving Lush Rimjob.
    Not a surprise kid, what girl would have ya? Entertain away but your private sex life with mr hand has nothing to do with lame excuses for Booheney Inc and their lackey teabogins. Except they all screwed the country and especially the tax payers. When are you going to contribute something besides mouthfarts? Skolnick was a minority since the Obombo you’re so paranoid of hasn’t been around long enough. He ripped Boosh apart as any 2 bit investigation could. World Banksters are real your buzzwords aren’t. Again you bring nothing to even use as visual aids. What are you protesting besides buzzzwords? Seen one Teabog Dipshit chickenhawk you pretty much seen all they got… Protesting nurses and health care, real brave. Don’t sound to bright to stand there as a car runs over your foot. Save it teabog, I don’t care.

    Republican Gomorrah: Inside The Movement That Shattered The Party
    “With scarcely more than a pith helmet, a notebook, and a tattered copy of Escape from Freedom, Erich Fromm’s great study of authoritarian psychology, the dauntless Max Blumenthal set forth years ago to explore the dank forests of American Christianism. Now he has returned to civilization, bringing back a fine collection of shrunken heads and a riveting account of a religio-political subculture that’s even weirder than you thought it was. Republican Gomorrah is an irresistable combination of anthropology and psychopathology that exerts the queasy fascination of (let’s face it) something very like pornography.”
    —Hendrik Hertzberg, The New Yorker

    Feel The Hate 12th posting on youtube
    be quick this one doesn’t last long… Huffy Post banned it.

  • DavesNotHere

    Personal insults about sex? Really DdC? Well, that shows 3rd Grade logic right there. DdC, you remind me of Richard Nixon and Harry Anslinger with the way you make things up about people to demonize them. You are just like Nixon and Anslinger, DdD, just like them.

    It was a wheelchair, not a car, and if you had any knowledge whatsoever behind your childish, ignorant name-calling, you would know Sherman Skolnick was in a wheelchair and didn’t drive. I’ve personally known that since 1998, and again something proves how empty your childish name-calling and lies are.

    Obama replaced Blagojevich with the TriLaterals when Blago got sloppy FYI. It was the Chicago mobs turn.

  • DdC

    Teabog you’re Boring me. You have no references other than that of a handicapped jerk its all mouthfarts. You entertain yourself sounds like what normal people do masterbating. Sorry if you can’t get it up. Now I understand where all your frustration comes from. And why you fit in so well with racist GOPerverts. Sherman was a conspiracy writer. Obombo has Daly ties and it’s local, end of story. The Teabog dipshits are rush limbog fox news puppets working for the Insurance and Pharmaceuticals. Teabogs do it for free. You are the lowest lifeform in the gutter. Bashing teachers, nurses and the poorest in the country. Degrading workers with socialist labels simply for wanting affordable health care. Lapdog all the moneysluts you want jerk. Bring some references, your word is still shit. Stop being so damn boring. Do you even know who Nixon was dipshit?

    Right-Wing Turncoat Gives the Inside Scoop
    on Why Conservatives Are Rampaging Town Halls
    By Frank Schaeffer, AlterNet
    The GOP is willing to disrupt the health care debate if they can’t win it. Yesterday in Tampa, a mob of Glenn Beck supporters nearly caused a riot.

    Inside Story on Town Hall Riots
    Right-Wing Shock Troops Do Corporate America’s Dirty Work

    Fight back against health insurance lies By Robert Greenwald
    What does UnitedHealth Group CEO Stephen Hemsley have to lose if Congress passes real healthcare reform this year?

    How Republican Attack Dogs Plan to Thwart Health Reform

    Birther Whack Jobs: Citizens of Idiot America

    Busted! Town Hall Hooligan is GOP Operative
    By Amanda Terkel, Think Progress

  • bonze

    “New Libertarians”?

    Proving that there is no label for a political belief system which cannot be corrupted beyond belief!

    “Oh, I’m an OLD Libertarian–the kind that loves the grinding sound of the bootheel of the State crushing people for behaviors of which I disapprove!”

  • Ripmeupacuppa

    Dear DdC

    It’s already painful enough to have to continually see your disjointed rantings littering every thread here at DWR, but when you also personally abuse those of us who do not entirely agree with you, it becomes unbearable. This will be my last post here.

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