There’s a new extensive article at Huffington Post worth reading: Dying To Be Free: There’s A Treatment For Heroin Addiction That Actually Works. Why Aren’t We Using It? by Jason Cherkis.
This article absolutely destroys the abstinence-only approach to addiction treatment that drives so much of U.S. drug policy and the treatment industry, showing how this approach actually leads to many of the overdose deaths we see, while failing to actually serve addicts.
It amazes me that people can read this kind of detail and still spout in comments that forcing people to quit cold turkey is the only way to go. It shows just how dysfunctional we have been as a society by pushing anti-drug propaganda to the point of destroying logic and reason.
It’s also sad that this probably ground-breaking article on addiction treatment in the U.S. still doesn’t even get to HAT (heroin-assisted treatment) and some of the better approaches to managing addiction that have been proven successful elsewhere.
Apparently, you CAN od on suboxone…people who do not commonly use opiates are most at risk…novices in other words, can’t take the hit.
Dear darkcycle, what you are saying and apparently believe is not correct. There has never been any evidence to support the notion of fatal heroin (morphine) overdose. The simple fact is that morphine does not stop people breathing under normal “overdose” conditions. There is just no evidence. There is plenty of evidence that fatal heroin (morphine) overdose is complete myth. Please view my presentation- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqw64lOWy1c
It is virtually impossible to progress in the discussion on the “War on Drugs” until you accept that heroin (morphine) is NOT a dangerous drug apart from constipation. Not meaning to be patronising, but that is how it stands.
Matt… the last time you linked to your video here on the couch I asked you about Dr Harold Shipman…. how was he able to murder upwards of 100 patients, mostly elderly women, with a single massive injection of diamorphine (heroin)? If I remember correctly you stated that any “heroin o.d.” was the result of multiple drugs in the deceased’s body.
Were these old ladies all polydrug users and the heroin was just part of the mix? That seems unlikely to me.
That is lovely, Matt. But bupernorphine/naloxone is not diamorphine.
Dear Darkcycle, the point I am making is that the whole fatal opiate/opioid fatal overdose thing is not supported by evidence. There is only evidence that opiates don’t kill in the overdose situation. Suboxone is buprenorphine (a partial opiate agonist) and naloxone (narcan) an aggressive opiate antagonist. In other words, bup is not as strong as morphine. The narcan only works (you go into withdrawal) if you inject and apparently snort it. You say “apparently you Can od on Suboxone”. Well, all I am saying is where is the evidence? If you inject suboxone, you will go into full opiate withdrawal, not overdose. So I am asking you, how much Suboxone is required to (I am assuming when you say OD you mean fatally) ingest orally, nasally or any other way to “OD”? Again, where are the toxicology reports to back up your claim? The subject of novice users being prone to fatal opiate overdose is just not supported by evidence. The reseach has been done. It is as simple as this, in my opinion, if the general populace continues to believe fatal opiate overdose is real (and they do) drug law reform in the case of opiates is very unlikely to occur. Ever since I have posted about the subject on this forum, there are those that tenaciously cling to the concept of fatal opiate overdose, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. That is their right, but it is only ultimately counterproductive to drug law reform. Maybe that is their intention, I dont know. Maybe you could enlighten me.
Dear Matt, “Suboxone did not save Miles Malone, 20; it killed him. In 2010, a friend texted Mr. Malone an invitation to use the drug recreationally — “we can do the suboxins as soon as I give them to u, iight, dude?†— and he died that night in South Berwick, Me., of buprenorphine poisoning. The friend, Shawn Verrill, was sentenced this summer to 71 months in prison. ” http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/health/in-demand-in-clinics-and-on-the-street-bupe-can-be-savior-or-menace.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
Morphine and other opiates most certainly can and do kill. Many, many people. They do this by suppressing the breathing center until the unfortunate OD patient stops breathing. Peddle that bullpucky somewhere else.
Perhaps this will help. Acetylating morphine by treating it with acetic anhydride produces heroin. It is the standard pharmaceutical way to create a compound that can pass directly through the blood-brain barrier and quickly get to work. Aspirin and Quaaludes are acetylated in this way, as are many other pharmaceuticals. Ingesting morphine alone causes it to enter the brain via the medulla oblongata, which is where its cough suppressant activity is achieved. Because it enters the medulla, it becomes a central nervous system depressant that suppresses the breathing reflex. Heroin delivers most of its morphine through the blood-brain barrier, quickly enough so it bypasses much of the CNS breathing reflex reduction, but there is still enough morphine acting on the medulla to have a CNS effect. Thus, heroin is considered much stronger than morphine, which is much stronger than codeine, and so forth. Opiate tolerance also needs to be factored in, but given enough heroin, or apparently enough buprenorphine, it is possible to die from an OD, as many do. Ref. here.
DarkCycle, it is obvious you have an agenda and am determined to reinforce a myth, with no concern for evidence or more importantly lack of evidence. There will be something behind the death of this person as there inevitably is with deaths attributed to opiates/opioids. As regards “illict” drugs and particularly opiates, you travel down a very dangerous road if you accept at face value something the press, coroners and the DEA etc says. And anyway, it is a puerile, moot point in the realm of drug policy. Alcohol use results in the deaths of many young people. Are the alcohol dealers arrested by enforcement agencies and sentenced to custodial terms for supplying alcohol??? No, darkcycle, they are not. Matt.
“there will be SOMETHING behind the death of this person”
Matt keeps demanding evidence yet the word ‘something’ passes for it in Mattland. Why have you never answered my question about Shipman? Oh I forgot, the shipman inquiry was plenty EVIDENCE that heroin o.d.s can and do kill.
Or read Servitus’ post above.
(By the way, we have lost one or two pet trolls of late and we’d love you, Matt, to drop by more often. Don’t be a stranger!)
Matt….not that I’m saying you’re a troll of course, because you’re obviously house-trained, but your logic is so left field, not to mention darn right irresponsible (I love it it, you’ve just got me to sound like Calvina! Think of the chilluns, man) that I just I have to gawk….
Matt…. take the fifth if you have to, but have you ever stuck a needle in your vein and given yourself just a little more than you needed? Correct me if I’m wrong, but i get the impression that your empirical evidence is based on what you observed in others at that withdrawal unit you mentioned, and that you may yourself be opiate naive, no?
No agenda, Matt, other than to see bad information stopped before it hurts someone. I am more than familiar with Stanton Peele and his assertions that heroin overdoses are rare. http://www.peele.net/lib/heroinoverdose.html
What you missed is that while they are rare, they DO occur, and very often in addicts relapsing. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/01/coroner_thats_the_dose_that_ki.html Furthermore, “pure” heroin doesn’t exist on the street, so even if these overdose deaths are due to impurities and added drugs, without a source of pure diamorphine, addicts are kind of up shit creek, aren’t they?
For years we’ve asked the prohibs “If marijuana is so dangerous, where are the bodies?” That won’t WORK for heroin, no matter if it’s true or not. The bodies are stacked like cord wood. http://heroin.net/heroin-effects/heroin-overdose-statistics/
And again, if you missed it the first time, Suboxone is NOT a pure opiate agonist, it is an agonist paired with a dose of the ANTagonist medication, Naloxone. So your argument is invalid from the git go.
DC, don’t forget that the truth can be a personal agenda.
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“Who killed Cock Robin?” “I,” said the Sparrow,
“With my bow and arrow, I killed Cock Robin.”
“Who saw him die?” “I,” said the Fly,
“With my little eye, I saw him die.”
“Who caught his blood?” “I,” said the Fish,
“With my little dish, I caught his blood.”
“Who’ll make the shroud?” “I,” said the Beetle,
“With my thread and needle, I’ll make the shroud.”
“Who’ll dig his grave?” “I,” said the Owl,
“With my pick and shovel, I’ll dig his grave.”
“Who’ll be the parson?” “I,” said the Rook,
“With my little book, I’ll be the parson.”
“Who’ll be the clerk?” “I,” said the Lark,
“If it’s not in the dark, I’ll be the clerk.”
“Who’ll carry the link?” “I,” said the Linnet,
“I’ll fetch it in a minute, I’ll carry the link.”
“Who’ll be chief mourner?” “I,” said the Dove,
“I mourn for my love, I’ll be chief mourner.”
“Who’ll carry the coffin?” “I,” said the Kite,
“If it’s not through the night, I’ll carry the coffin.”
“Who’ll bear the pall? “We,” said the Wren,
“Both the cock and the hen, we’ll bear the pall.”
“Who’ll sing a psalm?” “I,” said the Thrush,
“As she sat on a bush, I’ll sing a psalm.”
“Who’ll toll the bell?” “I,” said the bull,
“Because I can pull, I’ll toll the bell.”
All the birds of the air fell a-sighing and a-sobbing,
When they heard the bell toll for poor Cock Robin.
Darkcycle, I know what Suboxone is. What happened is I read the article, saw the claims of opiate overdose and responded to your post on this basis, when your post related specifically to Buprenorphine (from suboxone). I apologise for this. However, what I have said is entirely relevant to the general discussion. You are enthusiastically espousing the concept of fatal heroin overdose. I am saying there is no evidence to support it. The studies I see can only cite autopsy results with low morphine levels. Levels far lower than someone in palliative care has. I have a piece from a pathologist that proves that many coroners, forensic pathologists attribute death to opiates just because they were present (in low concentrations) and even when there are other drugs such as alcohol are involved. I am saying this- you cannot trust what is said in the press. You need to see the toxicology results and go from there. Anyway, if you have not already done it, view my presentation. It explains most of the issue. One point from my presentation, if killing yourself is a simple matter of taking “too much” morphine, why are there videos on youtube of older people trying to cook up sodium pentobarbital in backyard labs in case they need it if they get terminally ill? If morphine overdose worked, why would they bother? Why wouldnt the US states execute people with morphine only? I suggest because it does not work.
Dear Darkcycle this is the last time I will bother you in this particular thread. I just couldn’t resist this from one of the websites you referenced. I quote- “Famous Celebrity Deaths Related to Heroin Addiction. From music to film and television, the last fifty years have seen a number of celebrity heroin overdose deaths. Kurt Cobain (musician). The lead singer of the best-selling band Nirvana died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound after taking a lethal amount of heroin.”
So regardless of the shotgun wound, a “fatal heroin overdose” was still implicated in Kurt’s death. Do you get my point about the bias of the media, in this case a website containing advertisements for “recovery” services? I could discuss this more but thankfully I won’t.
I, too, am thankful for that.
Faith-based “reasoning” is the foundation of the “War on (some) Drugs”. Don’t confuse me with data or science I know how to cure these addict scum! Punish them!
This is the result of allowing reactionary authoritarians to make and enforce drug policy. I mean, as a society it makes sense for authoritarians to police violent asocial people. But drug addicts are neither – they are rather damaged, hurting people for whom a public health approach is both more humane and much cheaper than demonizing, marginalizing, and continuously punishing and excluding them.
The Swiss approach should be the model of addiction treatment – heroin maintenance provided by a public health nurse. I mean, 80% of the addicts enrolled in the Swiss program are gainfully employed.
Prohibition is a failed model, has never worked, will never work, except to provide employment for self-serving prohibitionists and criminal black market profiteers. We should put both groups out of business.
At the end of Chapter 2, author Jason Cherkis states, “There’s no single explanation for why addiction treatment is mired in a kind of scientific dark age, why addicts are denied the help that modern medicine can offer.â€
And yet a bit later, Mr. Cherkis gives us what could be considered, if not a single explanation, at least what can be considered the most prominent explanation: “These were the same people who were telling me that you couldn’t be sober if you were taking antidepressants. It’s a lack of understanding. It’s a lack of knowledge. †Or to be more precise, it’s the involvement of organized religion in addiction treatment that causes it to be dark and problematic:
12-step doesn’t work most of the time. It’s said to have a very high failure rate, yet it continues to be used everywhere. Given the obvious refusal to dispose of 12-step methods as a reliable solution to anything drug or alcohol related, the question must be asked: has 12-step become an excuse to be used by religious zealots to aggressively shove religion down a person’s throat, a form of coercive proselytizing?
Certainly in other instances we see the drug war being used as an excuse to oppress minorities in North America. In Latin America, the drug war is used to engage in phony drug raids on villages to drive Indigenous residents from their land so that mining, petroleum interests, palm oil plantations, and other large corporate entities can move in and take over these regions without compensating those who may have rightful ownership of the natural resources. These aggressive tactics, which result in thousands of innocent people being murdered, rely on the myths generated by the drug war’s foundational excuse: the sin of addiction.
Drug war aggression and the aggressive tactics of human rights criminals who seek legitimacy using 12-step programs is akin to all other acts of war aggression. Such aggression is “the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.†– (Nuremburg judgment of prominent Nazis).
I don’t like the Huffington Post. Better than the Guardian, but still terrible… Broken clocks and all that.
Since my drug of choice is cannabis I have never had a problem quitting when I needed to for jobs during the last 46 years..my ventures into chemical drugs like meth,cocaine and LSD were more exploratory than habit forming and I walked away from them without much trouble but even with my limited experience it has been a mistake to put the agencies charged with maintaining prohibition as the decision maker on how to treat addiction,,again,,it all comes back to bureaucrats deciding policies so that they don’t impact their budgets or mandates.
The sooner the federal government sets up an agency that is not funded or controlled by the drug warriors the sooner we can address addiction in a sane manner.
100% right. More often than not I feel those chosen for government funds use them to provide treatment that more closely resembles punishment ( Semblers, Synanon, etc.). Even the refusal to use harm reduction for heroin addiction smacks of punishment. Du Pont pushes it this way too. The old erroneous idea that if you suffer enough you won’t do it again, and you deserve it anyways.
I remember my grandpa giving me a puff off of his cigarette one day when I asked about it. I couldn’t figure out why he was so willing, and why he had a small smirk on his face. When I was finally close to done being deathly ill, I overheard heard my grandmother giving all hell to grandpa. His reply was “well, he will never do it again!”
I’ve been a 2 pack a day smoker for 50 years. It didn’t work. I know his intentions were good, but if it happened today child services would be there. Because it doesn’t work and its harmful.
With no family love and some government funding to strangers, programs run on this type of philosophy are sadistic.
12 step programs are not sadistic, but they were founded on the basis that everything else had been tried and failed and nothing was left, not even hope. Most drug users don’t fit that description, especially those sent there by courts.
I don’t dispute it undoubtedly has helped many. When you want to change sometimes any help will do.
Trouble is most are faced with no treatment choices at all except the courts or a sorely insufficient and useless community mental health program run by ASAM at its worse.
“The sooner the federal government sets up an agency that is not funded or controlled by the drug warriors the sooner we can address addiction in a sane manner.”
So right, clay.
BUT…where are you going to find “an agency that is not funded or controlled by the drug warriors” ?
Methanol in the denatured alcohol. Paraquat on the pot. It is the notion that they only get what they deserve, that if an addict suffers, there is a lesson in there somewhere that might be learned…if they live, that is. And the people in the addicts lives, parents, spouses, children…they only matter peripherally, if at all.
That is why it is so easy for people to insist on the current, cold turkey treatment regime even after seeing the data that say an addict is at higher risk of overdose when relapsing. That overdose was deserved as a punishment for failing in a twelve step abstinence only world.
Clay, the federal government ARE the drug warriors.
Drug Rehab=Mind Control and forced brainwashing
+ big bucks
ot-ish Loretta Lynch Speaks Out Against Obama’s Proposed Decriminalization Of Marijuana via @YahooFinance
In her confirmation hearing on Wednesday, Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch voiced her disagreement with Obama’s view on marijuana legalization, saying that if she is confirmed she will push to maintain the drug’s illegal status.
Obama’s attorney general nominee thinks pot is more dangerous than alcohol. She’s wrong. via @germanrlopez
Alcohol is directly responsible for far more deaths than marijuana, according to the best federal data on direct health effects. No one has reportedly died from a marijuana overdose, but tens of thousands die each year due to direct health complications, such as liver disease, brought on by excessive alcohol consumption.
Judiciary Chairman: State Laws Legalizing Marijuana Are Unconstitutional
“The Controlled Substances Act prohibits marijuana possession nationwide,†said Grassley. “Under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, state laws to the contrary are unconstitutional.
Obama can remove cannabis as a controlled substance. Or more whack a mole prohibidiots…
New Attorney General Would Continue Obama Marijuana Policy
By Tom Angell http://tinyurl.com/nekjf6l
I am worried about Grassley/Lynch. There is bad mojo there.
Obama’s “marijuana policy” is selective enforcement of the same old shit laws based on pure fiction. Oh how lucky we are she will continue as the lesser evil over reality. Hope springs infernal. Meanwhile It’s Sitll Official. Nancy Grace is Still an idiiot.
☛ Reefer Madness II: Nancy Grace argues with NORML chair and Dr. Drew about marijuana
☛ After sparring with 2 Chainz, Nancy Grace debates pot with Dr. Drew
“I’m not going to let the isolated stories you drag off the Internet impact and affect the millions and millions of Americans who use marijuana responsibly and do not impair or impact society negatively,†National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) chair Norm Kent told Grace. “You’re the one who’s sending out the bad message.â€
“No, I’m saying your argument is not real,†Kent told Grace. “You take isolated instances of aberrant behavior and try to make them standardized for all marijuana users. And once and for all, Nancy, have you no conscience? When will this stop? When will you own up to the fact that millions and millions of Americans can light up a joint — and have been since the age of Woodstock — without impairing their families, driving recklessly or endangering people.â€
To Grace’s apparent surprise, Pinsky said he was siding with Kent, since authorities recovered not only a partially-eaten marijuana candy and an unsmoked marijuana cigarette from the scene, but an empty bottle of hydrocodone.
Nanny Disgrace
http://endingcannabisprohibition.yuku.com/topic/1991
Nanny Disgrace would take DAREyl Gates advise and just shoot all the drug users. In a “debate” with Pisstaste advocate Penski. Lock em up in rehabilitation asylums. Sounds par for MSM. The realist getting Disgraced dizzy and almost a silence out of what has never seemed to happen with her mouth permanently dislodged in the ajar position. In a brief blurb of truth whisking over her head. She admitted he must be stoned. Busted for using debate enhancing drugs. Bringing truth into a MSM drug war discussion without wearing the assigned “tin foil hat” buzzword diversion label. Totally righteous condemnation of two prohibitionist perverts of Justice, Humanity and Common Decency. Obey the law Nanny.
One really minor quibble with Pete’s headline. In this case I think “medieval” should be spelled “mediEVIL” but without the caps.
Let me start this comment by saying: I LOVE HEROIN!
And, that’s why after my first injection in 1973 I never did it again. This might be hard for some to believe but it’s an absolutely true story.
Almost before the guy injecting me had removed the syringe the VERY first words out of my mouth as the dopamine began flooding my brain was: “I’m going to want more of this tomorrow. Don’t give me any.”
The next day I felt like someone had beat me with a baseball bat and I was “sorely” tempted to seek out another hit which I didn’t do. And, I never put heroin in my veins again. That experience has always made a part of me want to be “CJ.”
Jason Cherkis’ story was really an eye-opener on just how hostile the so-called treatment industry is both to SCIENCE AND HARM REDUCTION. And, drug treatment without science or a desire to reduce harm is VOODOO medicine at best.
The American Society for Addiction Medicine (ASAM) should be called A SCAM instead.
I have a friend who had the same experience as you with heroin, and did exactly the same thing — never did it again, for the same reason. My friend’s experience was in Nam.
yeah, that first heroin experience is sooo good. Being in Thailand (’73, ’74) w/ it’s purty near pure heroin, I smoked mine, laid in my hammock and floated up to the clouds. No use after that matched the first experience. Personally I prefer opium to H.
Just another article full of propaganda and/or misapprehension.
1. There has never been any evidence to support the notion of fatal heroin (morphine) overdose. Please view my presentation that I put together to show this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqw64lOWy1c
2. The political administration of the United States and elsewhere WANTS deaths in which morphine was a factor for propaganda purposes. Heroin (morphine) is NOT a dangerous drug, but they need people to believe it is to help facilitate their ongoing persecution of users of drugs other than alcohol, tobacco and caffeine. This is why they wont allow heroin maintenance programs, because it would plainly show that heroin (morphine) is NOT dangerous.
3. The so-called War on Drugs is NOT I repeat NOT a response to addiction. It is simply a contrived economy exploiting users of drugs other than alcohol, tobacco and caffeine. “Addicted” users of alcohol, tobacco and caffeine are not imprisoned purely for being “addicted”. They are not imprisoned because they are the majority. Users of drugs other than alcohol, tobacco and caffeine are not imprisoned because of the drugs they use, they are imprisoned primarily to “fuel” an industry. They are able to be imprisoned because they belong to minority groups.
That’s actually pretty earth shattering info, Matt. I am stunned. I guess I shouldn’t be after seeing what has been done to cannabis.
I’ve seen some cold turkey withdrawals from heroin that weren’t pretty and a lot worse than a bad cold or the flu. I guess I have to say I am a bit of a skeptic. Will read more.
Something that I should have noted on my initial post. Probably the major reason the US and others will not allow heroin maintenance programs is that the black market that they have created and enthusiastically maintain would likely collapse or at the very least diminish in value if people could get pure heroin (morphine) at a realistic price. This would be a disaster for the US and others who profit from the present situation.
I used to work in a withdrawal unit and this is what I witnessed. Anyway, the facts are that opiate withdrawal does not even approach the danger of alcohol or benzo withdrawal. The nature of withdrawals from various drugs is a moot point anyway; are opiate users imprisoned because their drug causes constipation and withdrawal from their drug causes diarrhoea? No, they are imprisoned largely to sustain the prison/industrial complex.
Worse drug I have ever helped someone withdraw from:
Alcohol.
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I realized that it’s been some time since I have monitored the criminal mischief of drinking alcohol cartels in places which still maintain the idiocy of drinking alcohol prohibition. The three articles linked below all appeared on the first page of returned results found by Googling the word bootleggers:
How about medicinal drinking alcohol?
“The marijuana movement is a tsunami of intelligence sweeping across this country of ignorance, and it’s killing everything ignorant in its wake, and it’s not gonna stop,”
-Tommy Chong
http://tinyurl.com/qgkrox5
Police state in action:
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/watch-seattle-cop-pepper-sprays-teacher-directly-face-walking-too-close
who is this matt and when did he start posting around here?
i just saw this and i cant wait to read it all, i thought it was just a short article but to see how big it is i just cant right now but i will very soon and i will try to comment asap. but from what i can see it looks good though i only got to part way to chapter 2 and so far it looks like a suboxone promo – though like i said i did not read it all whatsoever YET so i could be wrong -. But like I always say, I think moving things from methadone to suboxone is a step in the wrong direction. I call it the demon drug of demon drugs. It is evil. It’s actually more than that it is SPITEFUL and VINDICTIVE at it’s core and in its essence. As the papers themselves say, “generic buprenorphine” (subutex?) doesn’t create that pre withdrawal that suboxone does, nevertheless, these manufacturers create this suboxone KNOWING the hell and I mean HELL that it is capable of creating. Listen, taking heroin, then following it with some suboxone like many newbies, amateurs or just unwise/unpracticed do, that withdrawal will cause you to kill yourself, it is the most agonizing thing in the world. we have had since the time of Caesar Augustus, opiate withdrawal, already the most painful thing you can feel, however, suboxone’s effects of ripping the opiates off the opiate receptors, that pre withdrawal is beyond opiate withdrawal and to know this and to manufacture a product ON PURPOSE that can do that, listen, castration, world class cluster headaches (suicide headaches) and being set on fire would be a mercy from the pain of that super withdrawal. it’s evil to design something like that. But that’s not the ony reason i hate suboxone. Again, I am pressed for time at the moment, I promise to write soon but quickly, another reason is this: it’s like anything else in this drug war. any educated person i think can see the inevitability of global drug reform. but time is the one thing none of us can truly have any more of. Time. So, I’d like us all to be alive when heroin users are liberated. Suboxone will take things in such the opposite direction. Society needs to be detoxed off of drug prohibition FOR EVERY DRUG. It’s withdrawing from marijuana at this very moment. Every drug will have it’s time. So when it’s heroin’s turn, when it’s time for the one type of medicated treatment for heroin that does work (heroin maintenance) society is going to be like “what about all this time and money we put into suboxone?” so we’ll have to detox society off suboxone, that will take time. During that time we’ll have to move society to methadone AGAIN, when we can finally detox society off that THEN we can get to heroin. I don’t know how long it’ll take, but I personally am on borrowed time [as several ODs have lead me to believe [[ oh and about ODs, i have always believed that the majority of OD’s come from people that aren’t educated/wise about what they’re doing, but that’s not always the case. The last time I OD’ed for example was a year ago, I’d been getting one particular variety of heroin called i believe it was UFC or “strong medicine” but one day that source had been dry i had to switch to someone else til the original source was good again. I dont drink nor do anything but heroin so that day i grabbed three bags and did a normal three bag shot. When I do a shot, no matter where, i always immediately get up off the seat or toilet, take the belt off my arm, put it back around my pants, and immediately wash the blood off my forearm [[[it’s a long story but my dad used to do heroin and has also had much experience with death and hes an AA guy and even in his 30 years of sobriety still deals with death, i just always wanted to spare the image of me with blood all over and a needle sticking out of my arm so thus why i rapidly move to clean up instead of sitting there waiting to feel it]]] and go about my business. in this case though i couldn’t even do that. I just woke up with legs sticking out under the bathroom stall and security of the supermarket bringing me back. thats what i remember.]] ]
No clue, CJ. He just showed up. Haven’t seen Opiophile in a while…hope he’s hangin’ in there. Good to hear from you.
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It appears that the Colorado State Patrol has decided to try to cause people to infer that Colorado highway safety is suffering
The sycophants of prohibition sure are easy to sucker. With the Denver Post leading the charge of the States’ media outlets standing ready to employ every imaginable kind of hysterical rhetoric to work the general public into a frenzy over the “threat” of cannabis addled driving and we’re supposed to believe that there’s actually been a significant problem with cannabis addled drivers in Colorado which hasn’t been reported?
Does anyone else have a clue about the genuine threat to highway safety in this Country represented by the soon to suffering from Alzheimer’s baby boomers? Perhaps not. I think that most people haven’t had the opportunity to observe the progression of that disease first hand. My dad was 71 when I first realized that there was a major problem. The rest of my family preferred the strategy of keeping the head buried in the sand hoping it would just go away.
My oldest sister turns 70 in September. I never can recall whether or not she’s a baby boomer. But she’s either among the last of the “silent” generation or one of the first baby boomers. Either way it’s not going to be long before baby boomer Alzheimer’s patients start killing people in some spectacular displays of highway mayhem and people are clucking about cannabis addled driving.
I have no clue about how to get the message through to people with their heads buried hoping that it will just go away. If I did I would certainly share my observations. On the bright side it’s certainly going to speed up the transition to self driven motor vehicles. I just hope we’re all alive to see that day.
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Ooops, silly me forgot to post the link to the article that started me ruminating about future highway mayhem. 354. Three hundred fifty four. Are people really going to let themselves be scammed into a panic over 354 cases of cannabis addled driving?
i usually drive with a illegal smile, the only ticket i’ve had in the last 25 years or so was on my bicycle.
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Well I have figured out a way to put the whole controversy to rest, once and for all, and in a matter of days, not years. But it’s an all or nothing bet and I think I may have mentioned how much I hate those. Do my fellow fans of cannabis actually have the composite driving record that I believe is likely? Just FYI that would be demonstrably safer than a composite of the general population of drivers.
I’m 63, smoking herb since 1969. Last ticket, 1970. Last accident, 1984. 10 years spent driving 20′ flatbeds carrying tons of lumber, no accidents, citations or warnings.
Peoples driving habits haven’t changed. More pot smokers aren’t on the roads. Its just a new avenue for an excuse to up their revenues.
Where the pot is coming from is all that has changed. Now, if only a cop had a way of proving impairment for marijuana. Metabolite tests don’t show or prove impairment. They only provide the tracks for the railroad.
Philip Seymour Hoffman Could Be Alive Today If The Drug War Was Over
Johann Hari http://tinyurl.com/ljwt8oh
@Matt
I’m NOT signing in to YouTube as requested to view your video so I have little idea if I’m actually addressing your concerns.
However, a couple of things make me nervous about your statement about opiate overdoses.
First, the evidence for the safety of cannabis is that is has very few receptor sites in the part of the brain stem that controls breathing. This lack of receptors in the breathing-control part of the brain is why we’re told cannabis doesn’t cause fatalities.
On the other hand, opiates and their receptors are PLENTIFUL in this part of the brain. When I had some surgery while using morphine they were worried about adding on opiate analgesics because of my reduced respiration. If death wasn’t a complication from opiates why would my surgeon have been concerned about my low-rate of respiration?
Surely if you have some evidence, you can supply a link to PubMed and the studies that back your view.
Dear NorCal,
My presentation on youtube is fully referenced so you can check the evidence yourself. All the evidence is valid and in the public domain. The presentation is only age rated because someone complained to youtube apparently about the truth being presented about heroin. Why wont you view the presentation? Are you afraid of the truth? Are you afraid of having to acknowledge that you were gullible in some measure? Well I too was gullible decades ago, so dont worry about it. It is only important to know and understand the truth. Ill tell you what started my trip to enlightenment- talking to a middle aged, long-term opiate user. I
mentioned fatal overdose and he looked at me with a look of total disdain and annoyance. He then said the only consequence of overdose for him had been nausea and headaches. So that should give you a clue, there are a lot of middle aged and older opiate users around. The myth (lie) is that heroin has a small therapeutic index ie toxic (in this case lets say fatal) dose, slightly more than its therapeutic dose. Absolute bullshit. Proven to be bullshit by both commonsense and research (in my presentation). If this myth was true there would plausibly be NO old opiate users around. They would have died at the first overdose. If it was just a matter of taking slightly too much morphine and conveniently stopping breathing and not breathing long enough to die, tell me why morphine wasnt used in the recent botched (in terms of length of time to death) executions in the US when they couldnt use barbituates? Surely the perfect propaganda coup to use only morphine? Have you ever considered that they didnt use morphine because it doesnt work??? That it doesnt actually stop breathing??? I am not saying that it is not theoretically possible for morphine to stop breathing, but curiously, no-one seems to know the dose. It may slow breathing as many drugs do but the evidence is that it doesnt stop breathing. As far as your medical experience, I actually work in a hospital. A big percentage of the medical profession believe that morphine has the ability to stop breathing in the total absence of evidence. In my experience it is rare that morphine (possibly never) is the only drug used during surgery. It has side effects of nausea and constipation which leads most returning patients to say they are “allergic” to morphine (the nausea). Mostly propofol and benzos for surgery done under sedation. I hope everyone on this forum reads this post and realises I am with you, not against you, but you have to accept the evidence. Fatal heroin (morphine) overdose has been known to be a myth for decades, I am only regurgitating what has been known for a long time. If you possess reams of toxicology reports showing deceased people with extroadinarily high blood morphine levels then I will reassess. But to my and many others (the experts) knowledge, they dont exist. So, in closing NorCal, view the presentation, it is too important for pride to get in the way. Matt.
@Matt,
All views and opinions are WELCOME at the couch. Don’t hold it against me just because I hate GOOGLE and won’t create a GOOGLE account.
I actually think you may have some really important information and the fact that it’s radical and controversial is SWEET. I love researching info that challenges my beliefs and opinions.
Could you relax your “view-my-video-or-shut-up” stance and help me out with a study or link?
BTW I think ALL drugs should be legalized and sold with known purity and dosage NOT just our favorite drug at the couch, cannabis.
And, something you might be interested in. I used “full extract cannabis oil” to withdraw and detox from a 20-year morphine dependency.
Excellent point.
Yes, all views are welcome, but the YouTube requirement is off-putting. The age restriction doesn’t just require you to say that you’re over 18 and willing to watch adult content – you actually have to log in with your Google account. For some, like NorCalNative, they may not even have a Google account. I do, but it’s hugely password protected with a double verification system, and for me to try to log into YouTube when I’m not at my home computer is a nightmare.
I did finally, and then got to your video, which is merely screens of text. I read faster than most people, so I didn’t have the patience to wait for each new screen of text, and then I’d lose track of the flow. I didn’t have the patience to follow the whole thing, and then get to the links at the end. Video is for movement, not text. (Hell, I don’t even have the patience to watch video of talking heads.)
It may seem silly, but it’s a reality that if you want to convince someone of something, you don’t want to make them have to work for it. It’s part of the reason that I recommend Johann Hari’s book so highly – he could have written a book full of facts and nobody would have been interested in reading it. But by including those facts in the context of compelling story-telling, he engages people.
There must be some text-based way you can present that material, through Google Docs or something. I would recommend that you re-format it, and bring it back to us so we can have a good discussion about it.
Thanks for coming to us and participating with us. Nobody here is close-minded when it comes to evidence, particularly when that evidence shows yet again how the drug war is harmful. But we’re also careful. We’re not going to make or support claims unless we’re pretty sure about it.
I am not telling people to watch the video or shut up. The video is just my less than perfect attempt to present the information. It is a lot of work to create these things and I have to work and do other things. I don’t at this moment have any other way of presenting the information. I could post the reference page on this forum for you. This may help.
@Matt
“1. There has never been any evidence to support the notion of fatal heroin (morphine) overdose.”
I think you are talking about conditions that are ideal, not about conditions street “junkies” find themselves in.
If you are referring to heroin maintenance programs, you are correct from what I have been able to glean. Recreational use of heroin using unknown substances of unknown strenghts and unknown adulterations do cause overdose deaths. Fatal heroin overdose under known and controlled conditions from legal programs using heroin of known quality and strenghth are rare.
Keeping heroin illegal is the real main source of death if you look at it that way, as is the street hustling and the crime that must be employed to afford the illegal habit by the user. Our own laws against heroin cause the deaths and the dangerous situation that is created out of the necessity to procure the drug on the black market. It also fills our prisons with people who could otherwise live productive lives in society.
Prohibition keeps no one safe, creates crime, and corrupts the very institutions that were set up to keep us safe.
No TC, the conditions for every type of opiate user. Did you view the presentation? If you viewed the presentation, I am fascinated as to why you still defend the fatal heroin overdose thing when there is no evidence to support it. You write-“Recreational use of heroin using unknown substances of unknown strenghts and unknown adulterations do cause overdose deaths”. Where’s the evidence???
Heroin (morphine) possession etc is illegal for two main reasons and not because it is dangerous (because it is not dangerous). One because it forces users to buy from the black market and therefore sustain massive tax free profits. Two, it allows the state to impose fines and imprisonment on users and (some traffickers) thereby sustaining the prison/industrial complex ie private and non-private prisons, police, DEA etc. In short using taxpayers money to create thousands of jobs and profits on the back of oppression of a minority, opiate users.
I have watched your presentation 3 times. Sorry Matt,but just because an LD50 has not been established for humans does not mean that there is no fatal dose level. Nor does it mean that all heroin deaths are poly drug use deaths. There is much validity in the data.
There is also a long line of dead bodies.
Why do I feel that I am trying to convince someone that the holocaust was real?
Heroin does not have the safety track record of pot when it comes to overdose. No one has died of a heroin overdose? I call bull.
Ok, I get the picture. You too have an agenda and am not interested in an evidence based approach to the issue. Firstly, I did not say or imply that there is no fatal dose of morphine. Secondly, I did not say or imply that all “heroin deaths” are poly-drug related. A “holocaust”??? Now you are just being silly. Lets just assume for arguments sake that there has been a holocaust of deaths attributable soley to opiates. What term then would you accordingly use for tobacco and alcohol related deaths??? The term holocaust in relation to deaths in which opiates were present is just ridiculous. They are a tiny fraction of drug related (alcohol and tobacco are drugs) mortality. Do you honestly think opiate users are imprisoned because of the alleged danger of their drug of choice? I think this forum is frequented by many cannabis users who care only about the cessation of their own cannabis-related oppression and will say and believe nearly anything as regards other drugs to suit this agenda. This is your perogative, but the outrage that is the “War on Drugs” also affects users of drugs other than cannabis.
I have no agenda other than having the truth in proper perspective Matt, and I intend to do more reading on this. I have no doubt much of what you say is true. I think its also true that the dangerousness of opiates is much overplayed.
I am retired and not a novice at this stuff. I have helped many people “kick”. Not just heroin. Lots of things.
Hey Matt, welcome to the couch…
There is only one problem I have with heroin distribution. That is that I would prefer it be out of reach of kids and kept behind the counter. Maybe it is still keeping some of it in the black market, but probably without our support or opposition to LEO’s as we do the drug war in general. As for prohibition being the harm. That is true in all prohibitions. When the prohibition is worse than the prohibited, thats where someone is making money on the deal and takes it out of the realm of drugs, into profits. All bets off.
Cannabis is not a dangerous drug but can be abused and that is a lack of education due to prohibition. Adulterated street dope or inconsistent dosages are also directly caused by prohibition. Over dosing prescription drugs seems crazy yet it happens more than with illicit drugs. Is it under prescribed to appease the DEA so that people take more and find it is too much too late? Seems if a doctor evaluates the patient and size, past use, tolerance and quality assurance from the labs factored in. Then there is a minimum risk and maintenance would benefit the community.
The simple fact that ludicrously dangerous policies like banning OTC syringes or busting needle exchanges and junkie pharmacologists should have sent red flags flying across the radar screen. MSM should have been outraged at such notions. So as we know too well with the Ganjawar. They really don’t give a damn about us. Just profits. Even the bible thumping rehabilitation profiteer’s primary goal is the asylum fee and if insurance covers it. The Health system is following lock step putting profits over patients. Food industry and environmental deregulation of checks and balances while green fines for polluting take priority over green environments. The way they shun Hemp and cannabis tells the story better than the billboards and posters whining about it.
I was given a hit of heroin from an x high school football star coming back from Vietnam a junkie. He missed the vein and it scared me away for about 6 months. Maybe he did it on purpose. Then I tried it again and soon slept with technicolor dreams of euphoria with no stress. When I tried to score in the city of Pittsburgh I naturally got ripped off and that was enough to not use it again. Early 70’s Rolling Stones and Blues seemed to be the downer era. Cough syrup for codine, and Rorer 714’s, Quaaludes they called soapers was my new lil friend. Just not a friend to driving any machine. Right after the acid age and Beatles. Someone ask me how far I’d gone on drugs, curious if I moved on from pot. I said I hitch hiked from Pittsburgh to San Fran, most of it on Orange Sunshine. Maybe it will become civilized and as they say, if you don’t grow up by 50. You don’t have too.
The Heroin Challenge
http://endingcannabisprohibition.yuku.com/topic/1668
Heroin reaches pain faster…Outlaw It!
http://endingcannabisprohibition.yuku.com/sreply/645
The reason that opiate addiction is such a problem is because it is illegal.
Jeff Mizanskey, Life for Pot in Perspective
http://endingcannabisprohibition.yuku.com/topic/1970
Under an ideal situation, Heroin/morphine and other previously “illicit” drugs would be best sold from some type of licenced business to those of “legal” age. It should not be advertised or otherwise glorified. But of course, neither should alcohol be advertised or glorified. But thats another discussion. I am worn out by todays activities. All I can say in this depleted state of energy is that the more an honest and open person researchs opiates and their use, the only conclusion the evidence provides is that there is no such thing as fatal heroin/morphine overdose. Trying to discuss this with most people leads to generalised frustration with the human race. Also, I believe many who think they understand the “War on Drugs” dont actually understand the real motives behind it. Like when people say the WoDs has failed. Failed?? It has been a resounding success. Just ask the banks that launder the money, the employees of the DEA and other branches of law enforcement, the private prison operators, the businesses that supply the DEA and police etc etc. I would think they would be quite happy with the results to date. Matt.
the state of ohio needs to find a way to execute people with drugs:http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/ohio-postpones-all-executions-this-year-while-officials-search-for-new-lethal-drug-mix/ maybe they sould try heroin.
They kind of did. They tried using versed and dilaudid. Dilaudid is 3-5 times more potent than heroin.
It took him 27 minutes to die. From an opiate and versed. Poly drug use death? Pay attention here Matt. It killed him but it took 27 minutes.
Firstly, they can’t use heroin (morphine) because it is not an effective way of killing someone. Secondly, why did you put a question mark? More than one drug is poly-drug. Thirdly, the poor man would have likely eventually have died from or from complications of asphyxiation from a compromised airway. I always pay attention TC.
I would support a serious investigation into the Rehab industry and also the Prohibition groups like Marijuana Makes You Violent, No2Pot, Don’t let Florida go to Pot, CADCA, CALM and other prohibition groups if there is any connection to Straight Inc which is now Partnership for a Drug Free America or any funds that have been given to Melvin and Betty Sembler where funds have been made available to make possible for children to be abused or brainwashed and even mind controlled against their will, should result in prosecutions for Straight Inc, Marijuana Makes You Violent, No2Pot, Parents Opposed to Pot and etc
and also should they be found guilty, harsh prison sentences will be a real possibility as no body should be brainwashed or controlled against their will. The old adage applies “You sow what you reap”. Also the number of children who were abused at Straight Inc is now more than 50,000 and some of them have since committed suicide or are living with the bad memories of it.
As regards heroin; Now now people, let’s try to be civil. Matt has brought new information, which conflicts with the ‘common knowledge’ we all share. This common knowledge is the result of having been fed drug warrior information for our entire lives. Prohibitionist liars who lie about cannabis don’t suddenly begin telling the truth about other substances. Our ‘common knowledge’ has been formed based largely on lies. The response Matt has been faced with here is very negative, for no apparent reason. Have we not been sickened by the lies of the prohibidiots? Have we not decried the media for repeating the lies, and not accepting the truth we know? Here is information which flies in the face of ‘common knowledge’ much as truth flies in the face of common knowledge about cannabis, yet we reject it and instead we argue with Matt. It seems that we have fallen into the prohibitionist trap, same as the media. For shame.
Stanton Peele has written about the myth of heroin overdose here: http://www.peele.net/lib/heroinoverdose.html
I don’t think we are falling into a trap at all. One of the tragic consequences of the drug war is that many novices try the “dangerous” schedule 1 drug cannabis and discover that they have been lied to. Inevitably that increases the likelihood of newbies trying more dangerous drugs like heroin and cocaine in the belief that they are being lied to again.
There are additional, later replies to Matt from me and others further up in this thread.
Firstly, I don’t appreciate your aggression Jean, I will give a response to the Shipman thing when I am able. You have labelled me a troll. I can assure you I only contribute to this forum in a positive and genuine capacity. This is what you are infering in this post- people get lied to about the danger of cannabis, but they don’t get lied to about the danger of heroin/morphine. I think any reasonable person (without necessarily any knowledge of drugs) would say this is a fairly naive or preducicial way of thinking.
<y thought exactly primus,,all we know is what we have learned from our own and others experiences with drugs or what the govt tells us,,and we depend own our personal experiences more than we do other peoples,,even if the experiences are similar we will keep our own references for decision making on drug use.
That is why I stay out of most of the discussions on opiates and a lot of other drugs,,I do not have the experience or knowledge to have the depth to argue for or against them.
But I know prohibition doesn't work,,it never has in the history of man,,no prohibition has ever been successfully enforced by any government or religion and it has destroyed many that kept trying to enforce one,,and it is destroying society now because it is world-wide,,we must end it and make make a final prohibition,,ban all prohibitions and figure out another method to deal with problem substances instead of digging a hole to throw money in.
Thankyou Primus, you have made my day. Absolutely spot on. I only ever bring information to this forum that is backed up by evidence and/or a good deal of critical thought on my part. The myth of heroin overdose is basically the key to understanding the “Drug War” strategy of mind control. If you like it is the “foundation lie” along with “cannabis causes schizophrenia”. Like I said to several contributors, I am with you, not against you. When you argue with me you are actually arguing against a folder full of evidence, made up of unbiased research and observations by people employed in the field such as pathologists and researchers. Argue by all means, but unless you back it up with evidence, it means nothing. Also, I am not the first to present this information on heroin “overdose”, it has been known for many decades. I am not trying to convince anyone, I am just presenting the evidence and some logical inperpretation of it. Matt.
hey i just started reading again im trying to read in earnest but it looks like something happened in the comments too so im going to look into that but the thing is right now, lol, so i started chapter 2 and BOOM look what we have here, that son of a gun Kevin Sabet. He said and Im paraphrasing “Crooks in white coats handing out candy” referring to doctors at pain clinics. You know, the one thing I can say is, I think of so many friends who’ve died, and IDK even after so many years, I think you do eventually become numb, yes, but i think if you stop and really stop and think about the deceased, it’s not something you can really ever develop total dumbness towards… There are certainly a few (Tugboat, Michelle RIP) if I sat and thought about, no matter how much “tolerance” I’ve developed towards death, that will definitely get me emotional and upset. My point is, sorry for diverting, but, my point is, to me, and this could be messed up, but, I just hate how a “crook” [stealing money, time, attention from ignorant people and other entities] like Kevin Sabet, a really evil person, because no question, his work and what he does and what he stands for KILLS people, yes it does, sorry if you dont agree, but here this son of a gun is alive and good people die. and they die because of people like him. it makes me upset.
On Bahá’u’lláh Kevin Abraham Sabet-Sharghi, knowingly watching little girls have 300 seizures instead of 2 or 3. Knowingly putting their parents in cages and removing the sick kid into bible thumping white trash trailer park foster care. The decades of persecution, lopsided justice and cruel mean spirited thugs killing honest citizens. Well I agree with Billy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXXyms5g5ok
It’s started. The 2016 presidential election: Rand Paul bashed Jeb Bush because Jeb smoked marijuana in high school, and yet el loco Bush continues to reject medical and recreational marijuana decriminalization or legalization.
Jeb Bush is a hypocrite about marijuana, Rand Paul says
By Jake Miller at CBS News http://tinyurl.com/lvozvur
Rand Paul: “This is a guy who now admits he smoked marijuana but he wants to put people in jail who do,”
Yes sir. More, more!
2016 could be a very good year.
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You know, I really am starting to warm up to Mr. Paul.
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It’s been some time since I’ve read a comments column which brings out that particular crowd and forgot to adhere to established safety protocols. I really gave it my best efforts and was holding it down until they started arguing about Terri Schiavo. I just didn’t see that one coming. Does anyone have a good method for getting the vomit stains out of my carpet before my wife gets home? She’ll be like, I know you know better than to reading the thoughts of borderline literate self anointed conservative looney toons on a full stomach! Well she’s right, but that doesn’t mean that I want to hear it.
I apologise for getting a little bit off track with the heroin overdose thing, but it is extremely relevant to this article. This is my interpretation of the situation. The “state” lies about the danger of heroin/morphine in order to gain political credibility for its fake agenda to “save” the public from a dangerous drug.(Heroin/morphine is not dangerous apart from constipation, and there is no evidence to support precipitous death by overdose). This agenda is part of the mind control to enable (politically) the contrived economy that is the “War on Drugs”. They then devise a “treatment”: Buprenorphine, (which along with the opiate antagonist Naloxone makes up Suboxone). The offering of a treatment gives them political credibility from a gullible public that they are trying to “help” opiate users. What they are really doing is forcing opiate users who are disatisfied with Buprenorphine to buy their quite safe drug of choice (herion/morphine) from the black market, therefore feeding the vested interests in this market, including you guessed it, the government. Methadone and Naltrexone are other “treatments” for the “disease” of opiate addiction.
I’m a bit late to the thread, but after reading the non-stop shtstorm about this wanted to weigh in. Tolerance to opioid-induced respiratory depression develops extremely rapidly, at a pace that far exceeds tolerance to the subjective effects like rush and high. So after a couple weeks of use, the amount of morphine/heroin alone required to kill a dependent user would be so high they’d have to use dozens of times their regular dose, something which is cost-prohibitive for such a large number of addicts that when you add in the propensity of those with such deep pockets to be polydrug users, you have a situation that is so rare it’s unlikely to show up in statistics. I do somewhat doubt all overdoses in illicit fentanyl situations is due to polydrug use, as this can in fact create a situation where the dose is dozens of times higher than normal, and while fentanyl is not morphine/heroin its mechanism of action is identical and there’s no factual basis for denying that an equianalgesic dose of heroin would not produce the same consequence.
When you get into non-tolerant users, you’re still faced with a fairly high threshold for fatal respiratory depression with opioids alone. It’s high enough that you don’t see it because it almost certainly would have to be intentional. I’m not giving you YouTube views because you claim you’re unable to copy/paste your references from the presentation source, but I don’t believe from what’s been posted here that you’ve provided evidence against intentional overdoses; e.g. Shipman, Bassett, etc.
Anecdotally… many many years ago before I quit, I knew a girl who was not on other drugs at the time, with her lying about it being unlikely as she was talking up her drug use in an effort to get as big a shot as everyone else in the room, who had the daily habits of a rockstar. Lying about being tolerant, normal use amounts, and what else she was on (all question that were asked) to someone who didn’t see her on a daily basis, she got what she asked for. She went out to the living room and sat down, and 10 minutes later I found her blue and not breathing. I have no doubt she would have fatally overdosed had I not intervened with CPR and forcing her awake. Plenty of people stop breathing for a few seconds and wake up gasping… but once you’re blue and can’t be woken up by being yelled at, you’re not waking up ever again on your own.
So bottom line is that while it’s an incredibly rare situation (you’re studying intentional deaths with a rare modality, or accidental ones with an even more rare modality), what little direct evidence that does exist indicates that an overdose is possible, but almost never accidentally. But context is important: it’s entirely possible to fatally overdose on almost anything, including water, and countless OTC meds.
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Some days I really do think that I’ve accidentally ended up in a parallel universe. Other days there’s just no question in my mind that it’s true.
A sitting Governor talking about cannabis for enjoyment as if it were a park bench he enjoyed sitting on when he was young?
— check.
Florida’s Legislature noticing the 58-42 loss for medicinal cannabis patient protection ballot initiative and decides to put together a comprehensive patient protection law?
— check
Finding Dr Drew on the same side of the negotiations table?
— check
Nancy Grace exposed as a Succubus?
— stand by
The DC Council grows a pair and decides to stand up to Congress over cannabis law reform?
— check
…and just when I thought I’d seen everything along comes this solution in search of a problem:
The death of Philip Seymour Hoffman has been noted in this thread. There is a link to an article by Johann Hari. Johann cites all the classic red herrings, contaminants, unknown dose etc etc. All essentially irrelevant. This is a prime example of what I am saying. Apparently Hoffman had multiple drugs “on board”, including heroin (morphine) and benzodiazepines, which is a known problematic mixture as is morph and alcohol and alcohol and benzos. So, this was NOT an overdose. It is mixed drug toxicity. I can tell you with a reasonable amount of confidence that he quite likely would have died from asphixiation from an obstructed airway. If anyone has access to the toxicology or pathologist’s report, please let me know. Of course there are the many people on comments sections saying he “took too much (heroin)”. Absolute rubbish. This was NOT a heroin overdose. Even though it was NOT an “overdose”, it is still reported in many cases as an “overdose”. This is incorrect and nothing but propaganda. The people on this forum that have aggressively dismissed what I have had to say on the subject, take note.
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